Is Saddam dead at last???

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Preacherman

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From the Observer, England (http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,982710,00.html):

DNA tests after missiles strike 'Saddam convoy'

Human remains removed after US Hellfire missiles target source of dictator's satellite phone call

Jason Burke in Baghdad
Sunday June 22, 2003
The Observer

American specialists were carrying out DNA tests last night on human remains believed by US military sources to be those of Saddam Hussein and one of his sons, The Observer can reveal.
The remains were retrieved from a convoy of vehicles struck last week by US forces following 'firm' information that the former Iraqi leader and members of his family were travelling in the Western Desert near Syria.

Military sources told The Observer that the strikes, involving an undisclosed number of Hellfire missiles, were launched against the convoy last Wednesday after the interception of a satellite telephone conversation involving either Saddam or his sons.

The operation, which has not yet been disclosed by the Pentagon, involved the United States air force and ground troops of the Third Armoured Cavalry Regiment based around Ramadi, a major town 70 miles west of Baghdad.

Despite previously unfounded US claims that Saddam had been killed during the bombing of Baghdad before the invasion by America and Britain, the sources indicated that they were cautiously optimistic that they had finally killed the target they described as 'the top man'.

Asked about rumours circulating in senior military circles about the incident, one US officer with knowledge of the raid on the convoy said: 'That is unreleasable information. The Pentagon has to release that information.'

The Pentagon last night refused to comment on what it called 'operational matters'. However, other military sources indicated they were optimistic the tests would show that Saddam and at least one of his two sons, Uday and Qusay, were among the dead, although they stressed that a conclusive identification of the men killed in the attack had not yet been made.

The convoy, composed of several four-wheel-drive luxury vehicles, was attacked after the telephone call was intercepted. An air strike was then organised.

The sources confirmed that Uday Hussein, the deposed dictator's eldest son, was thought to have been travelling with his father in the convoy. The convoy is believed to have been heading for the Syrian border and was intercepted near the frontier town of Qaim. Several such convoys heading for the border were destroyed during the conflict in March and April.

Another US military source confirmed that there was 'an incident in the Western Desert' and said that information about it was 'unreleasable pending verification'. Other sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, revealed that they were awaiting confirmation that the remains were those of Saddam and Uday following full DNA tests. It was not known when the tests would be completed, but the sources indicated it was 'imminent'.

The attack on the convoy came two days after US authorities captured Abid Hamad Mahmud, one of Saddam's top aides. The Washington Post reported yesterday that Mahmud, who was seized by American Special Forces near Saddam's home town of Tikrit, had provided information about Saddam's whereabouts.

The paper reported that Mahmud had told US authorities that the deposed Iraqi leader and his two sons survived the war and that the sons, along with the aide, escaped to Syria, only to be forced to return to Iraq.

The officials said the aide had described a plan by Hussein and his sons to split up to increase their chances of survival as US forces closed in on Baghdad in April. Mahmud was captured last Monday in a raid near the Iraqi city of Tikrit that also netted a number of other, less senior Saddam Hussein loyalists, officials said. But neither the deposed Iraqi President nor his sons were with Mahmud.

'We're not yet sure he's telling the truth,' one senior defence official said of Mahmud's information. 'He could simply be reciting a set of talking points.'

However, the report, from the most significant member of Saddam's government caught so far, contributed to an increasing sense among US authorities last week that the net was closing on the ex-Iraqi leader, who was believed to be hiding somewhere north of Baghdad.

Accounts differed yesterday over the extent to which Mahmud had helped pinpoint the locations of Saddam and his sons. NBC News, which first reported that Mahmud was talking, said some of his information has included places where Saddam or the sons may be found.

A Special Operations group known as Task Force 20, made up of army and navy counter-terrorist teams, had been spearheading the long hunt for Saddam and family members.

US officials last night confirmed reports that Mahmud had told his interrogators that he, Saddam and the sons at one point fled to Syria and then re-entered Iraq. Syria has angrily denied US charges it harboured Saddam or members of his family or that it had any knowledge that top former Iraqi leaders might have taken refuge across its border during or since the US-led invasion that toppled Saddam.

Officials told Reuters that the 'information, or perhaps disinformation,' from Mahmud had intensified the hunt for Saddam Hussein and the sons by US Special Operations troops and paramilitary intelligence agents in Iraq.

White House officials said on Friday it was unclear if the former Iraqi leader was alive or dead. 'We know that this guy (Mahmud) was his (Saddam's) shadow at one time. But who knows what's true and what's not here,' one US official said last night.

Mahmud was regarded by Washington as the most wanted Iraqi figure after Saddam and his sons.

The presidential secretary was the ace of diamonds in the US 'deck of cards' of 55 most-wanted Iraqis and the highest-placed of them caught so far.

US forces have now captured at least 32 of the 55 on the list.
 
We have Saddam's DNA, say Americans

Gary Younge in New York
Monday April 14, 2003
The Guardian

The US forces possess confirmed samples of Saddam Hussein's DNA with which they can determine whether he has been killed or is still at large, according to the coalition commander, General Tommy Franks.

Asked if US forces had samples of Saddam's DNA, he said: "Oh, of course _ what you should know is that we have the forensic capability to chase these things down and we'll chase them down, every one of them, all the way."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4647659,00.html
 
HK,

Hadn't seen that article. Its interesting, but begs the question, how are they sure it is Saddam's DNA?

I guess they may have gotten a sample of DNA from one of his palaces, but how can they be sure it is his DNA, and not a servants?
 
Y' have to admire shooting first & asking questions later.

Does make it a tad hard to tell whether ya actually got 'im though.
 
Lone_Gunman,

All they need is a hair from his hairbrush or a toothbrush which I am certain they now have.

GT
 
One possible source...

Saddam had two sons that defected to Jordan and were supplying information to the West. These are the two that Uday Hussein told CNN's chief news executive Eason Jordon were going to be lured back to Iraq in 1995 and killed. Jordon did not warn anyone or publish the story, allowing them to be lured into Iraq, tortured and executed.
 
Isn't the Observer (Guardian UK) the news source that reported that the Iraqi "mobile bio-labs" were actually hydrogen generators for artillery MET sections? :confused:

SO if they're right about the Saddam DNA search....... then that would add credibility to their report that the "mobile bio-labs" were actually just hydrogen generators! :D

I hope they got Saddam (and can identify him), because as long as he's out there..... the guerilla war against US troops will continue.

Don
 
You guys are hard to convince....

Saddam's DNA ready to be used: Franks

AP - US forces say they have an important tool at their disposal as they try to crack the mystery of Saddam Hussein's whereabouts: a sample of the Iraqi dictator's DNA.

Franks said coalition forces also have DNA from other top Iraqi leaders. He did not explain how the DNA was obtained. It can be culled from a wide range of sources, including licked envelopes
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Sci_Tech/story_47638.asp
 
I believe they do have DNA samples from Saddam and friends.

Now..... if they got him in a convoy talking on a satellite phone to son, Uday, is questionable!

Remember ......they also tested DNA at the restaurant they blew to smithereens. Just lots of civilian DNA.

The final results are not in. Keep your fingers crossed.

Don
 
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The source of Saddam's DNA is suspect at best. I dont think this would hold up in court... but it might work to convince gullible people that he is dead.

I dont know if he is dead or alive, and don't even have a hunch. But telling me they found a corpse that matches the DNA on a toothbrush found in Saddam's Royal Water Closet sure isnt going to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt.

With information like this, how can they blame conspiracy theorists for contending he is not dead? This is the stuff from which urban legends are born.
 
But telling me they found a corpse that matches the DNA on a toothbrush found in Saddam's Royal Water Closet sure isnt going to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt.

After all the lies that have been reported as accurate intel, I can see why you are skeptical.

But, they haven't even claimed a DNA match yet.

All that is even claimed is that approx. 4 luxury SUVs and their occupants were toasted.

Gee! Hope it wasn't Chalabi or his "Rolex Revolutionaries"! :uhoh:

Don
 
Saddam is going to be much harder to get than Pablo Escobar. You think Saddam would be stupid enough to be using a satellite telephone while in a convoy fleeing? Not likely!

Wonder who they blasted?!! Hope it wasn't a bunch of innocents like the restaurant fiasco! :rolleyes:

Don
 
Curioser and curioser...

Looks like that strike may have taken place in Syria, not Iraq! It also appears that Syrian border guards may be among the injured...

From the Telegraph, London (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...24.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/06/24/ixnewstop.html):

US troops wound Syrians in border clash
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 24/06/2003)

United States special forces wounded at least five Syrian border guards as they pursued a convoy thought to be carrying senior members of Saddam Hussein's regime, it emerged yesterday.

The commandos launched an air and ground assault on convoy of six or seven vehicles speeding towards the Syrian border last week.

The attack initially raised speculation that Saddam Hussein or his sons might have been killed.

Five Syrian border guards are reported to remain in US military hands in Iraq, where they are receiving medical treatment.

Pentagon officials said US authorities were trying to arrange for their safe return to Syria, which has been under intense American pressure to close its borders to remnants of Saddam's regime.

It was not immediately clear who opened fire first, nor on which side of the border the gun battle took place, though the Pentagon admitted that the convoy may have been attacked inside Syria.

Syrian diplomats were keen to play down the clash, telling reporters that it was an "isolated incident" and saying Syrian border guards were not trying to be provocative.

Dr Imad Mustapha, Syria's deputy ambassador in Washington, said the wounded border guards were not in US custody. "We hope they will be returned very soon," he said, adding that he hoped use of deadly force was not a policy "endorsed by either country".

The clash was triggered when a vehicle or person from the convoy made a sudden run for Syria, near the border town of Qaim, a smuggling hotspot that has seen previous clashes with fleeing Iraqis. A number of former Iraqi regime members were killed and captured, defence officials said.

One Bush administration official said US special forces crossed the frontier rather than let their prey escape.

American forces were "in hot pursuit and wound up crossing the Syrian border", the unnamed official said.

Amid a cloak of tight secrecy, officials disagreed on whether DNA tests were being carried out on the human remains found in the convoy.

They confirmed that the convoy was attacked by members of Task Force 20, a commando unit hunting Saddam, backed up by air strikes from a slow-flying AC-130 gunship. They attempted to play down expectations that the dead might include the dictator, steering reporters towards unspecified "leadership figures".

The convoy strike was based on intelligence gained as a result of last week's capture of Saddam's right hand man, Gen Abid Hamid Mahmud al-Tikriti.

Mahmud is reported to have said he and Saddam's two sons, Qusay and Uday, escaped into Syria after the US invasion of Iraq, but were later forced to return.

He has also told his captors that Saddam survived the two huge bomb strikes directly aimed at him in Baghdad.

The American public remains broadly indifferent to the failure to find Saddam or weapons of mass destruction, with the majority of voters continuing to express support for the war.

A greater threat to domestic support comes from continued guerrilla attacks on US forces, which are costing American lives daily.

A delegation of senior US senators visiting Baghdad urged President George W Bush to be honest with Americans about the scale of the US commitment that would be required in Iraq, predicting that US forces would be needed for at least five years.

Senator Richard Lugar, Republican chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee, said the occupation required "at least a five-year plan" and added: "There needs to be real truth-telling by the president and each of us."

Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, said it was "too soon" to say how long the occupation would last. "The president's instructions are that we will stay as long as necessary but not a day longer," he said.
 
Sumptin' ain't adding up here.

From various reports I gather the target was a convoy of 6 SUV somewhere near the border.

Platforms used in the attack include Apache with Hellfire missles, Predator fired Hellfires, and AC-130 Spectre gunships in addition to the usual fast movers.

Reports coming out say the US is preparing to seriously thump the Syrians because of their continued support of terrorists, etc.

So after the incident we hear of Syrians being injured during the attack.

My assessment based on what I know:
--US hit something much larger than a convoy of 6 SUV's. One Apache could have done the job.
--Spectre gunships generally don't come out at light.
--I thnk the US caught a sizeable force of some kind out in the open and they don't want to talk about it right now.

Far, far too much firepower was used against 6 cars.
 
--I thnk the US caught a sizeable force of some kind out in the open and they don't want to talk about it right now.
-Waitone

Waitone, you are correct. "Sumpthin ain't adding up here".

The convoy was larger than "6 SUVs".

I don't think it was a larger "force" as you described it, but there were more people involved than first reported.

Sketchy reports have stated that 20 survivors were detained by US forces and most of them were later released. This suggests to me that they were probably not a military "force".

Also there was at least one larger truck (destroyed) in the convoy.

Putting this information together, I would GUESS that it was some sort of smuggling operation that the Gray Fox mistook for Saddam/Baathist VIPs trying to make it into Syria.

The fact that neither the US or the Syrians want to talk about it makes it VERY SUSPICIOUS!

We'll soon see what really happened ...... maybe. :confused:

Don
 
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Three weeks later........

...... and still no explanation. Well, I guess the pentagon isn't REQUIRED to give an explanation. That's OK. There is now enough information that one can figure out what happened.

It WAS a screw up. But it could have been worse. Only one civilian woman and a child killed. And 5 Syrian (probably corrupt) border guards wounded.

Task Force 20 DF'd commo from a convoy to a border village in Syria. There was further commo from the village to the Syrian border guards. This is the information that the operation was based on. Obviously the convoy was making contact with the border guards to allow them to cross.

Rumsfeld gives the "go" to take them out.

But it wasn't Saddam, or Uday, or Usay or any Baathist big wigs. It was a convoy of sheep and people smugglers.

20 or so people in the convoy were detained and released after questioning. Considering the amount of fire power brought to bear on this convoy, those a probably the luckiest people in the world. Only two people in the convoy killed (unknown how many wounded).

But then again....... not! How lucky is it to be mistaken for Saddam and almost get your butt shot off! :eek:

Don
 
i truly hope saddam is gone.his afterlife should be a permanent case of roids cause hes been a real pain in the backside for everyone.yeah,an everyone else there gets a kick.sorry,but i have to say it.the man was a menace.
 
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