Is this an M&P? (S&W K, 38S&W, no model#)

[MatthewVanitas]

Not quite sure what this is, any tips?

Inside the crane, it just says "G" and then "897XX". The butt reads 9453XX.

S&W seal on the side, barrel reads "38 S&W Ctgs". So that's the obsolete fat/short round, not the modern .38Spl?

Is this a pre-10, an M&P? What would this be called?

Seems mechanically solid, maybe 80% cosmetically. Is it worth anything, or should I just stoke it with some .38S&W SWCs and stuff it in a sock drawer?

Has pseudo-stag grips (kind of cool), if I want to switch the pseudostag onto another revolver, do I just slap some old K-frame square-butt grips onto this, or are they not compatible?

Thanks for any info, -MV

 

[FPrice]

It would appear that this is a S&W .38 Military & Police Model 1905 4th Model. Basically the fore-runner of the Model 10. I'd say late 1941 to very early 1942, most likely produced for Great Britain in view of the .38 S&W chambering. It's not worth that much although collectors are driving the price up. I'd say lay in a supply of .38 S&W and have a ball shooting it.

BUT! Check and see that it has not been altered in any way first!

edited to add:

The butt reads 9453XX.

This is the serial number. The letter/numbers inside the crane are usually manufacturing assembly numbers to keep major components togetherr.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

BUT! Check and see that it has not been altered in any way first!

Such as?

What alterations should I be alert to?

These fake stag grips aren't original, are they?

-MV

 

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson called it the Model .38-200. It was made for the British during the Second World War, starting in 1940 For a short time that year S&W declined to accept U.S. orders because their entire production was going to England. It is more of a collector's piece then a shooter because of its interesting history and (for us) oddball chambering.

Look and see to be sure the chambers haven't been altered. Most of these guns in this country were imported during the 1950's when the Mother County changed over to 9mm Brownings. Importers often had them rechambered to .38 Special, which made them more attractive to American buyers. But when this was done it left the rear of the chamber oversized, and .38 Special cases will expand into a sort of bottleneck, or split. Rechambering generally reduces their value to that of the parts within them. Sad, because they are an accurate shooter if the chambers were left alone.

Yes, regular K-frame stocks will fit. No, the ones on it are not original - they were made out of checkered walnut.

Edited to add: I noticed that it has a 4" barrel. On this model that's unusual, as most were 5". But at the time (1940) the war wasn't going well for England, and they take anything they could get. If the chambers haven't been altered the shorter barrel would slightly add to the collector's value.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

What's the best way to check if the chambers have been altered?

Do I just drop a .38 Spl in and see if it fits? If the chambers are not altered, will a .38 Spl _not_ fit?

If these grips are non-original anyway, I might just keep the pseudo-stag grips and buy some beater wooden K-frame grips on eBay.

If this is better off as a collector than shooter, I might have to send it off to the For Sale board, along with that 1902 Hand Ejector I picked up earlier this year. This is the peril of going into a pawnshop and saying "so, what hasn't moved in the last 12 months?"

-MV

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Okay, I just went and checked, and a .38Spl round does fit all the way into each chamber, and feels a tiny bit wiggly in the bottom.

Collector value now nil, yes?

Worth maybe $150 as a sock-drawer gun for someone who will fire 12 rounds a year?

-MV

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh....... Darn. (After all this is The High Road).

What would have been a $300.00 + gun is now what ever you can get for it, just because someone went hog wild with a chambering reamer...

A collector might buy it and replace the cylinder - there are still some around. Or you might take it back to where you bought it and show them that it's defective. I know! I know! But just maybe...

Another option would be to replace the cylinder with one made in .38 Special. The bore would be oversized (.360" vs. .358") but it would work. The revolver itself is pre-war S&W commercial quality with their famous "long action."

Before you dump it at a loss, get some Cowboy loads (light, standard velocity stuff) and shoot a cylinder full or two, and see if the cases split - sometimes they don't. If it works O. K. sell it, and throw in what's left of the box of cartridges. Plus-P wouldn't be a good idea.

 

[SaxonPig]

Reaming the chambers is meaningless as long as you stick to the proper .38 S&W (not Special) ammo. I guess maybe having been reamed would affect the value with purist collectors but since they only want pristine guns anyway it doesn't mean anything to the value of this gun. This modification doesn't show, doesn't keep it from shooting the correct ammo and it generally means nothing to most people other than serious collectors. I certainly would not worry about finding another cylinder. That would be useless since a replaced cylinder would harm its originality more than the reamed chambers.

Yes, it's worth $150 as a shooter. I reload the .38 S&W and have respect for the caliber's potential but if restricted to factory loaded ammo it can get pricey to shoot.

Most of the Brit guns were 5" so it's a little unusual. After 1957 these were made for foreign sales as the Model 11. Hard to find a model marked example.

 

[Hutch]

You might look closely at it for Brit proof marks (flaming bomb). I saw one similar that had NZ marks on it as well, which made it even more interesting, as kind of "pre-Victory-model". IIRC, it was blue, 5", but I didn't check to see if the chambers had been reamed to accept .38spl.

 

[FPrice]

Smith & Wesson called it the Model .38-200.

Old Fuff is absolutely correct about this. I keep forgetting that this caliber had it's own designation. Interestingly enough this frame/caliber combination continued until about 1965, eventually to be known as the Model 11. However I do not recall seeing any post-war versions, but they have to be out there some place. Probably mostly overseas.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Nope, no proof marks (sigh).

I got it as part of a larger deal, so it's not a like I got ripped off on it. This is a great reminder to me to minutely check everything before buying.

On the bright side, the fake stag grips are cool. If I can find any sort of cheap K-frame grip for $10, I'll swap them out and keep the B-Movie stags for some other piece.

-MV

 

[ugaarguy]

If I can find any sort of cheap K-frame grip for $10, I'll swap them out and keep the B-Movie stags for some other piece.

MV, The 2&1/2" round butt M66 I bought used had these weird wood finger groove grips that I didn't care for. A few weeks later I found a set of used, but original, magnas at the same shop for $15. I bet if you call around one of your local shops will have something similar. S&W made so many square butt K Frames that grips are everywhere.

 

[Old Fuff]

Nope, no proof marks (sigh).

If there are no english proof or military property marks on the gun it means it is one that stayed in this country. By 1941 a government agency called the Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) had the authority to "develop a practical plan for the distribution of revolvers, ammunition and equipment to supply the needs of police authorities."

Subsequently they obtained revolvers from various manufacturers, including S&W for this purpose. I suspect therefore that you have one of the DSC guns, and clearly the 4" barrel would have been more attractive to our police then the British military that wanted to have 5" barrels.

If lettered by Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson the DSC guns have a higher collector's value because there are fewer of them.

Maybe you will come out of this yet...

 

[Johnny Guest]

Proof marks

You might look closely at it for Brit proof marks (flaming bomb).

Actually, the flaming bomb is a US ordnance proof mark. British Military proof marks include the famous Broad Arrow - - Very wide "arrowhead" with a short shaft. These are usually accompanied by several other marks, including "tons," indicating the pressure at which it was proofed.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Hagen442]

S&W 38 5IN BLUE US STAMP

I need help trying to ID this Jewel.

3 Screw Version

"US" Stamped on left side below cylinder

Barrell stamped 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG.

6 Digit Serial #Stamped on Butt Plate & Bottom of Barrell under Ejecter Rod.

5 Digit number stamped where I would normaly look for the Model Number.

SMITH & WESSON stamped on left side of barrell

SMITH & WESSON trade mark on right side in usual position on frame.

The gunlooks like a K-38 or Model-10 with non standard Sights


Micrometer Rear Sight with Partridge Type front Sight

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Robin Dame

 

[SaxonPig]

I'm not an expert but I think we would need some of the serial number to tell what it might be. Like 1234XX if you don't want to post the entire number. The S&W models kept changing during the 1900-1915 period and the best way to ID is by the serial as they continued in sequence through the various model changes. If made after 1915 and before 1957 (that's when they started stamping the model number inside the cylinder crane) then a photo would help.

PS: Would have been better to start your own thread with this question.

 

[Old Fuff]

BODAME:

Saxon Pig is correct - to help we need more information.

What is the number on the butt plate? Is there also a letter preceeding it? That should identify the time frame the revolver was made.

Is the barrel round, and how long is it? (measured from the cylinder face to the end of the muzzle).

Are there patent dates stamped on top of the barrel? If so what are they?

Is the gun blued or Parkerized? Or does it have some other kind of finish?

The number stamped where you'd expect the model number to be, is an assembly No. and of no consequence to us here.

If you could post a picture it would be a great help.

 

[XavierBreath]

Robin Dame,
I recommend you start a new thread with the serial number, letters and numbers included, all the info you put here, as well as the barrel length. Post a photo of the revolver in question if possible. It sounds like an interesting gun. If it is indeed a three screw gun, it should have a model number. Model numbers came about in 1957. triggerguard screws went away around 1961.