large caliber, tube fed bolt action brought home from WWII...need info

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redneck

redneck

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I did a little shooting with some family yesterday. They had an old rifle my great uncle brought home from WWII with him and they don't know anything about it.
Unfortunately I didn't get any pictures, and didn't get to handle it much, so I don't have a lot to go on. I'm hoping if I give you guys some basic info you can help me figure out where I can look to track down a little bit more.

It seems to be a very old gun, probably WWI vintage or earlier. The muzzle looked like its about .50 caliber, but I'm wondering if it wasn't just a stepped muzzle for a plug type bayonet.
They said that it was tube fed. The only markings I found on from a quick check, was a crown in 2 places and the serial number.
The bolt was a turn bolt and worked pretty smoothly. Didn't appear to be too complex of a lock, there was a flat bar on the bottom of the bolt that might be the locking lug. That was the only one I could see.

I know this is really limited info, but I pretty much just got to pick the gun up, give a quick glance and then pass it on. If you guys have any ideas where I might find some pictures and info of rifles of this vintage, or if anything sounds familiar please let me know.
Maybe sometime I can go back and get pictures of it. Thanks alot :D
 
The likliest suspects would be:
German Mauser 71/84
Italian Vetterli
French Kropatschek

There were a number of other tube magazine rifles but those are from the major WW II combatants who might have been issuing anything on hand to home guard type troops. All were large caliber tube magazine bolt action repeaters, developed in the 1870s and obsolete by the 1880s. But guns were made to last back then and when you are hurting for weapons, you take what is available.

I have never heard of a cartridge rifle taking a plug bayonet. If the muzzle is larger than the usual 10-11mm of the day, it may be due to wear by an iron cleaning rod or it might be counterbored to remove such muzzle wear or damage.

Of course pictures and a detailed description are needed for positive identification.
 
Hey Thanks a lot Jim! :D
I think I found it. It looks like its a swiss vetterli 1871 :cool:
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet.htm
Picture there looks identical. The other models have a different buttstock.
I'll have to email the guy with the gun and have him take a closer look. He said he'd looked all over and nobody knew anything about it, but I knew you guys could set me on the right track.

This leads me to wondering the story on how my great uncle ended up with it. I think he was part of the campaign fighting up through italy, same as my grandpa. I thought they mainly were up against german and italian troops. I suppose weapons like that got moved around a lot though with the war going like it was. Going to have to look into that a little bit. I love this stuff!
 
A Swiss Vetterli would be marked with the Swiss cross, and pobably "SIG Neuhausen" or "Waffenfabrik Bern". There would be no crowns on a Swiss rifle; Switzerland was never a kingdom. In addition, Switzerland was neutral, it is not likely that a Swiss rifle would have been captured.

It is also possible that the family story is not factual. Sometimes, a weapon owned by a war veteran is thought to be a war souvenir or even the weapon carried by the man during the war. There is usually no intent to deceive, only a misunderstanding. (I remember the Model 1873 trapdoor carbine which, I was assured, had been carried in the D-Day landings in Normandy.)

I think more information is needed.

Jim
 
Tubular bolt actions weren't around for long . They were really transition guns. There were a few made here to . There's one in a Clint Eastwood film [Joe Kidd ?] which is a Remington-Keene.
 
Thanks alot JM, got the email :cool:

Jim
I know it wasn't what he carried during the war. He brought it home with him, he also brought a luger, and my grandpa brought home a Radom 35. Exactly how they got their hands on them I'll probably never know.

As far as the crown mark. I agree about it pointing away from it being a swiss gun. I think this may clear it up though.
71SwisVet11.jpg
The stock isn't in pristine condition. Its in amazingly good shape, but still has a lot of wear. It looks like whatever this mark is on a swiss 1871 ( http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/SwissVet71.htm ). Might be what everyone is assuming was a crown :confused:
 
Thanks Jim
I should point that the picture I posted is from a website, and not of the rifle in question. The location of the mark is the same, and the outline is about the same, which leads me to beleive that a little wear led to a lot of confusion.
I've got to get in touch with the guy who has the gun and have him look at this stuff. I'm pretty sure its a swiss vetterli though :D
 
"I remember the Model 1873 trapdoor carbine which, I was assured, had been carried in the D-Day landings in Normandy."

:eek:

And what if Spartacus had a Piper Cub....?
 
Swiss Vertellis were used fairly extensively in Italy during the 1870s. It wouldn't be unusual to find one there, nor for one to be used by partisans, or confiscated by one side or the other in WWII.
 
I doubt there would have been many, if any, Swiss Vetterlis in Italy at that early date, when it was still the Swiss service rifle. It is sometimes confused with the Italian Vetterli-Vitali, which has a Vetterli action but the Vitali magazine, a box type magazine. (Some were converted in WWI to 6.5mm, using the standard Carcano clip.) The rifle in question has a tubular magazine, so the Vetterli-Vitali is ruled out.

After the Swiss Vetterlis were declared obsolete and sold off by the Swiss, they went to many countries, including the U.S., so it is entirely possible that some could have been in Italy in the WWII period, though they would have been long obsolete and .41 rimfire ammo scarce by that time.

Jim
 
Thanks, Jim W. We live and learn and that Vetterli-Bertoldo is a new one on me.

Jim
 
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