Lawyers

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Might not be a bad idea to hook up with a lawyer. Seems they are getting harder to find these days. I've found out that more and more scientists are starting to use lawyers instead of rats for their lab tests. They found out that some researchers get attached to the rats, and there are just some things a rat wont do.
 
LFI / Mas Ayoob have a specific segment on this issue during LFI-I (or at least he did 6 years ago).

Step 1: Make friends with a couple of cops from different departments covering your area.
Step 2: Talk with them to find out what attorneys their folks (folks = union, benefit organization, Agency pre-paid, etc) use when they are involved in a lawful shooting.
Step 3: Go interview (normally $0) a couple of them and decide which one you want to pin your future liberty to.
Step 4: Go back to your attorney of choice and establish a attorney-client relationship - you fill out some paperwork (maybe), spend some money (yes) and jawbone with the attorney for an hour or so about your situation and your fears. You'll certainly learn about the various prosecution differences in your area - what kinds of offenses are pushed harder than others, how UCW & CHL is generally viewed by the local prosecutors and "bench warmers". Perhaps even what has constituted the facts of the case for a few justified or self-defense shootings.

In the end, you walk away with the 24hrs business card of the attorney... And he walks away thinking he has a new, low-revenue, stable, good-guy client.

You'ld perhaps be surprised at the number of Defense Attorneys who have never had an innocent client and who would not have the faintest idea how to best present your case in court. You are not looking for the "Charge Reduction" lawyer or the "Only Probation, please" lawyer. You are looking for the "My client is innocent, The State must prove its case, beyond a reasonable doubt" Lawyer. Those guys working defense for the "Blue Gang" know all this and are used to it. Find one you like and make him yours.

I followed the recommendation and am happy with my chioce. I see him every couple of years, for an hour or so, He catches me up on the lastest State lege laws I might be interested in. I catch him up on the latest big-boy toys (and what I'm doing which might effect my risk.)

It works well - and I'm certain that if I need him, he will defend me from a moral position built on a years-long relationship. Somehow, I am deluded into thinking I'm a little better prepared if something should go badly wrong.

So, it's a peace of mind issue. For me, it's worth it.

HTH,

Jax
 
"I am a lawyer. There is a difference between having a lawyer on a retainer for you and having "pre-paid" legal services. Pre-paid legal services or a pre-paid lawyer is a rip off."

I'd like to know why this is so; intuitively, I agree with you, but I'm trying to figure out why / whether I have good reasons on that front. Why do you believe pre-paid legal is a rip-off? My biggest reason for being against is is that it assumes interchangeability of lawyers, which just isn't a good assumption. (I'm still in law school, myself, but have seen plenty of good lawyers and weak lawyers do their thing in court ...)

timothy
 
I'm a prosecutor. My advice is to not waste money having a criminal defense attorney "on retainer." Also, do not waste money om pre-paid legal, which is a scam, when you read the fine print. Hire a criminal defense attorney if and when you need one. DO NOT use the guy who did your will or who formed your LLC. Hire a specialist.

Just so you all know, most prosecutors are not out to screw over someone who used a gun in self-defense. Oftentimes, it will be pretty clear from the circumstances and the criminal history who the bad guy is.
 
I'm a prosecutor. My advice is to not waste money having a criminal defense attorney "on retainer.
I don't take criminal defense advice from prosecutors but thank you for your input. As an attorney you (should) know that a retainer is not a "waste" of money. In fact, it is money in the bank. A retainer is not the attorney's money until I use his service. Until then, it is held in escrow for me.

I carry a gun so I have an attorney.

I found the attorney I wanted and asked him two questions:

--How much of a retainer do you require to open a file and begin my defense for a potential murder charge? ($5000)
--How much of a retainer do you require to return my phone call at 3 am and appear at the county jail on my behalf? ($1000).

I consider that I have $1000 in the bank, that I can have back at any time I choose, that guarantees me competent legal representation at 3 am.

Yeah, I hope I never need him. But then, I hope I never need my gun and I still carry it.
 
I don't take criminal defense advice from prosecutors but thank you for your input.

lol.. It is a bit ironic. :neener:

--How much of a retainer do you require to open a file and begin my defense for a potential murder charge? ($5000)
--How much of a retainer do you require to return my phone call at 3 am and appear at the county jail on my behalf? ($1000).

$6,000. That constituted about 80% of my income last year (only worked 6 months though). As a student I'll probably get the shaft by lawyers because my education expenses really do out pace my income. It is a cause for worry.

For the services you describe, however, I would be inclined to think it a worthy expense if you can afford it. If required of me, I would definitely have to choose between a box on the street or the lawyer. It's a no brainer, unfortunately.
 
--How much of a retainer do you require to open a file and begin my defense for a potential murder charge? ($5000)
--How much of a retainer do you require to return my phone call at 3 am and appear at the county jail on my behalf? ($1000).

$6,000. That constituted about 80% of my income last year (only worked 6 months though).
Just a hunch but I'm guessing that he "only" plunked down the $1000. The $5k, if he wanted to plan that far ahead, would more than likely be sitting in a savings account or similar, rather than deposited with said lawyer. I think that was more a matter of knowing ahead of time what it would take to get him started should he be facing a murder 2 charge.
 
I'm guessing that he "only" plunked down the $1000.
Correct.

I would definitely have to choose between a box on the street or the lawyer. It's a no brainer, unfortunately.
I think of it as a choice between a box on the street and a 6x10 box shared with 3 other guys, and it is a no-brainer.
 
I am a lawyer (licensed, but not currently practicing law). I carry MY lawyer's card in my wallet with an 800 24-hr number where I can reach him. I don't trust my ability to say the right thing or keep my mouth shut when something really bad happens.

I would not worry about retainers and fees until the need arises. At least he'll be willing to show up and let the police and prosecutor know I'm not going to hand them their case.

I take my lawyer to the range once a year (and he doesn't charge me for his time). I buy him his ammo and pay his range fee. I consider it an investment.
 
I think of it as a choice between a box on the street and a 6x10 box shared with 3 other guys, and it is a no-brainer.

Right. I can hear what you're saying. I could also do $1,000 for the service you speak of.

I remember my first innocent client. I was sick (physically, every morning) for a week before the trial.

Jury walked him in 20 minutes and only then could I eat again.

I wonder, moral question aside, in an adversarial system how does one put up a defense for a man he knows to be guilty. How does one juggle the barrier between lying and legal gymnastics?
 
In my jurisdiction, if you've shot someone and been arrested you'll still have to sit in jail until you see a judge or magistrate, whether or not you've paid a lawyer $1,000. Here the bonds are largely set according to a schedule; commit a certain level of felony, get a certain amount of bond. It might make you feel better to think that someone will come see you at 3AM, but I wouldn't count on that visit. No defense attorneys I know do such a thing.

No offense taken, but I know a heck of a lot more about criminal defense than many defense attorneys. But it's your money, use it in any way you see fit. Just remember, the last thing I or any of my colleagues want to do is rake someone over the coals for defending theirself against some scumbag. Things may be different in other parts of the country, but I would guess most DAs are like me.
 
Everyone should introduce themself to at least one lawyer.

If, at the end of your life, you haven't needed to consult a biz lawyer, a personal lawer, and a tax lawyer/professional, you haven't gone about your life properly.

As gunnies, we should also know the names of a gun lawyer, especially if you live in an institutionally gun hostile state.

Ideally, we'll stand before our maker without needing a criminal defense attorney.
 
[Originally posted by yhtomit after the close.]

vis-a-vis asked:

I wonder, moral question aside, in an adversarial system how does one put up a defense for a man he knows to be guilty. How does one juggle the barrier between lying and legal gymnastics?

Well, El Tejon is an actual lawyer, while I am a lowly law student (just ask my professors!) unlicensed to practice law on any planet in the solar system. However, my answer to that question would be that sometimes the defense for a man that (even) the attorney thinks to be guilty is not about lying ("He didn't do it!" when the lawyer knows he did or strongly suspects it), but rather about making the State *prove* its side rather than letting mere allegations win despite a presumption of innocence. I've seen defense attorneys pounce on sloppy police work, on contradictory testimony or descriptions, on "car in the tunnel" moments (suspect was out of sight for x-many seconds or minutes, are you *sure* it was the same man you saw run into the building who your partner saw run out a few minutes later?).

Always a tension, but it's a good thing -- think of the worst case scenario you can imagine, one in which you're framed for (or circumstances quite without malice coincide such that it looks like you committed) some heinous crime; you wouldn't want your attorney to say "Eh, sure looks to *me* like you're guilty, I'll be sure and ask for a nice cellmate for you.
 
ObThreadNecromancy:
but rather about making the State *prove* its side rather than letting mere allegations win despite a presumption of innocence
And that's the important one. I, too, hope to go to law school, and I want to be on the defense. Yes, there will be times I represent dirtbags, but those dirtbags are people too, and they have rights. We blow and go about unalienable rights, but many are quick to discard the rights of the accused. Even the guilty (as opposed to merely accused) have rights, chief among them the right to a fair trial.

The perception of lawyers is that their job is to get their clients out of trouble. This is fundamentally incorrect; their job is to get their clients a fair trial. In many jurisdictions, attorneys--even defense attorneys--are considered to be officers of the court. This is an important concept--it emphasizes that the attorney represents his client, but his duty is to the court; working, then, from the premise that the purpose of the judiciary is to ensure justice--for everybody, including the accused--it's easy to see where it is the defense lawyer's duty to do the best he can for his client, within the bounds of ethics.

To put it another way: the defense lawyer keeps the prosecution honest. Would you trust--really, truly have faith--in the verdict of a court that allowed perjured testimony, secret evidence, didn't allow the accused to defend himself? Of course not--that deck would be so obviously stacked as to be comical. The defense attorney, even for the guilty client, is liberty's peaceable check against "the depredations of a tyrannical government."
 
As several others have stated no to pre paid anything. You best bet is to do some research now instead of when you're in the middle of some crisis or sitting in jail when time is of the essence.

Find a good lawyer, and once you do talk him up about other areas. Odds are he has a bunch of buddies from law shool that practice in that area or know someone does.

Most of the people I deal with for my personal needs are either friends of friends or reccomendations by former professors. The legal network is a HUGE one and you shouldn't have any trouble finding some good attorneys.
 
I would also point out that your local or state firearms collectors society or bar association may well have a list of local counsel who specialize in firearms law. As an example, the Washington Arms Collectors have several lawyers who advertise in the newsletter periodically, and I have also seen similar ads in the Washington State Bar Association newsletter.

My expertise is on the defense side of medmal law, but I know several local counsel who do firearms work, including one who has a very interesting niche in restoring firearms rights in the context of domestic law: restraining orders, divorce and domestic violence situations.
 
Police Benevolent Association Attorneys

I am an attorney and, years ago, helped set up a legal defense network for defending police officers in a jam ( read this "shooting")

These were the best attorneys to handle a shooting case.

Call the PBA @ 1-800-233-3506, ask for Grady Dukes and see who they have in your area.

I have over 300 shootings / trials under my belt and can assure you that you REALLY need an experienced attorney if you have to defend yourself with a firearm.
 
defense counsel

Just a quick post on this - I am pretty hectic between flood issues and getting out of town for SoCal and a week of training, but:

I have done felony defense full-time for many years, including self defense and self defense/homicide cases. I also teach criminal law, as well lecture amd write on legal and self defense issues. I was in private practice for a number of years, then did a 10 year stint as a trial lawyer with the government, now back in private practice.

  • if you have a self defense case, what you are looking for is a criminal defense specialist
  • someone who knows a lot about firearms is nice, but not necessary - a good trial lawyers hires experts and consultants where necessary
  • it is good to make a prior connection - for example, I teach, lecture frequently on the law and self defense, have recorded a video for the NRA/CCW course in MN, etc. so I get approached by lots of folks to discuss self defense issues - lots of attorneys will be receptive to that sort of approach
  • I don't take "retainers" or enter into an attorney/client relationship with people I talk with on an informational basis

Here is why: My fees on homicides or other felonies can be substantial - if I take someone on as a client, it may create a conflict in taking another case or client. For example, A comes in, gives me $1000 "retainer" in event of any future incident. We understand it is in context of civilian self defense. Sometime later, A and his wealthy buddy B are attacked on the street by several thugs. They defend, resulting in charges against both. A cannot afford my fee for a defense. B easily could, but he is a co-defendant and I will be precluded from taking the case.

Accordingly, I keep things general - so that I am available for the client who can hire me. These are not theoretical - in the past year I have had to decline or withdraw on over a dozen felonies, including homicide, due to conflicts.
 
A couple years ago I had a client who was actually innocent and a jerk prosecutor who wouldn't back off. I fought like hell for him. The look on his face when the jury said "not guilty" and the hugs from his family meant a lot more to me than the $40/hour the County paid me to defend him.

I do both public and private criminal defense. Public defenders may have a bad reputation, and in some cases it's deserved. Most of the ones I know, though, take a fierce pride in their work and are some of the smartest lawyers you'll ever meet.

Which is a long way of saying that you shouldn't assume that you're screwed if you can't raise $5000 or up for an attorney.

Let me add that no one's good at everything. I can do a simple will, but if you have a complicated family situation or a lot of assets that will have tax consequences, I'm going to send you to someone who specializes in estate planning. Likewise, if you have a criminal charge you need someone who does criminal work all the time and knows the players, not an estate planning lawyer who's making his first appearance in criminal court.

If you live a sensible life, your odds of getting a criminal charge are pretty low. 99% of the people charged in criminal court got there because of drugs, booze, mental illness, domestic violence, or associating with lowlifes. If you don't have those issues the odds of getting a charge are fairly remote. It's good to know lawyers (and anyone who wants to take me shooting and spring for the ammo is welcome) but frankly I wouldn't make it my highest priority.
 
if you have a self defense case, what you are looking for is a criminal defense specialist
I agree with Richmond.

When asked what kind of lawyer to look for a self defense case, I always say "get a good litigator." A good litigator (pretrial/trial lawyer) will become an expert or get an expert on the issues.

I take my lawyer (the one whose card I carry next to my CCW license but whom I've never had to call) to the range at least once a year and talk about gun issues with him on some social occasions. He's my lawyer because he's a competent litigator.
 
public defense

I do both public and private criminal defense. Public defenders may have a bad reputation, and in some cases it's deserved. Most of the ones I know, though, take a fierce pride in their work and are some of the smartest lawyers you'll ever meet.
Usually there is only one problem for the public defender - staggering numbers of cases and lack of resources. I know first hand - I spent ten years as chief trial lawyer for our state public defender. I traveled a fairly large geographic area and took cases that the local defenders needed assistance with - homicides, crim sex, narcotics conspiracy. One year I averaged 80 hours a week for 52 weeks, spent 3 months of that year actually in trial - boy, was I tired.

The lawyers I worked with were courageous, had more experience in the courtroom and more guts than anything else going.

Different state, but here is how tough they are:

Washington, DC* (August 17, 2007) --- Carmen Hernandez today condemned the jailing of a public defender who refused to go to trial unprepared. Brian Jones, a public defender in Portage County, Ohio, was arrested for contempt after refusing to begin the misdemeanor assault trial of Jordan Scott. Mr. Scott’s case was assigned to Mr. Jones on Wednesday; the trial was to have begun at 1:30 pm Thursday.

Ms. Hernandez is the President of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

The story was reported in the Aug. 17 Ravenna (OH) Record-Courier.

Ms. Hernandez’s Statement:

A public defender in Ohio was jailed yesterday for contempt after refusing to proceed to trial unprepared. He had been appointed just one day before the trial was to start. To imprison a defense attorney for standing up for his client and complying with his ethical obligations and doing what our Constitution and laws demand is just plain wrong.

The judge in the case accused the public defender of “impeding justice.” An unprepared defense and undo haste cause far more injustice than minor delays and offend the fundamental guarantees that are the birthright of every American.

It is a fundamental right of every person accused to be represented in a criminal trial by a competent counsel and that requires that counsel conduct an investigation, interview witnesses and understand the case. The framers of the Constitution understood this when they guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights the right “to have the assistance of counsel” when accused of a crime. Nearly fifty years ago, in Gideon v Wainwright, the Supreme Court explained that the assistance of counsel is “one of the safeguards of the Sixth Amendment deemed necessary to insure fundamental human rights of life and liberty. The Sixth Amendment stands as a constant admonition that if the constitutional safeguards it provides be lost, justice will not ‘still be done.’ And that without it, “though he be not guilty, [an accused] faces the danger of conviction because he does not know how to establish his innocence.”

For the jury or judge to find the truth at trial, the defense must understand the case and be prepared. Defense lawyers must have investigated, talked to the witnesses, researched the law, and, frequently, consulted experts. Indeed, defense attorneys are required to do these things by a long line of U.S. Supreme Court precedent and the ethical rules that govern lawyers in every state in the Union.

Asking a lawyer to go to trial without preparation is like asking a doctor to perform surgery before diagnosing the patient. Harm is inevitable – the facts will be unclear and evidence will be missed. Worst of all, the wrong people may go to jail while real criminals remain at large. We ought not to forget so quickly the lessons that the Duke Lacrosse players who were falsely accused of crimes taught us.

For the scales of justice to be balanced, both the prosecution and the defense must be prepared. Without this balance, mistakes happen. We deserve and are entitled to better than an unreliable criminal justice system. Public defenders must be given the time and resources to do their jobs.
 
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