lead SWCs for self defense???

[Michigan Trigger]

I currently have Beretta PX4 in .40 S&W in my nightstand safe for self defence. I currently have hornady critical defense ammo loaded in it at the moment. I reload 155gr hardened lead SWCs for plinking in this handgun. I was wondering if these lead bullets would be effective for self defense? I'm wondering if they might flatten as they travel through a target or if they would act more like FMJs with maintaining their shape. I will probably keep the critical defense ammo loaded in my .40 because thats what they were designed for. This thread is more out of sheer curiosity than anything.

 

[orangeninja]

A SWC would act more like a FMJ unless of course it strikes bone. But there is no reason why even an FMJ wouldn't work for defensive situations...I don't buy into the notion that failure for a bullet to expand an extra 1/16 to 1/8th of an inch would render it somehow useless.

 

[Stophel]

SWC's have a sharp shoulder and tend to cut their way in (plus a flat "point", which is a nice big hammer), whereas FMJ just needles its way in. SWC's are definitely better for self defense than FMJ.

 

[earplug]

I'd trust them.

If they cycle through your firearm and you can load them hot enough to provide the penetration needed. I see no problem with a LSWC.
Heavier SWC's were a fine bullet for the .41 Magnum revolver round.
I would go up to a 180 grain SWC for plinking if your going to consider it for defense.

 

[mes227]

It's not that a poorly expanded bullet is useless. But every expert and study on the subject have concluded, with good cause, that more expansion is better so long as the bullet retains most of its weight. And expansions are not trivial - good quality SD loads will achieve 80% expansion, so a .40" bullet becomes .78" in the wound channel, while a .40" SWC pretty much stays at .40". It's the difference between sticking your pinky or your thumb in someone's chest. Both hurt but the thumb hurts a heck of a lot more.

Btw, was recently out with my son using old aluminum fry pans as targets. Shooting .38special, .357Mag, .45Colt and 30-30. The JHP in each caliber had fantastic expansion. The JSP 30-30s had the jacket stripped off and the lead core remained intact. The SWC .38s and .45s had absolutely no expansion. Some of those bullets could have been used again. the biggest holes in the Pam's, visible at 10 yards, we're the JHPs.

 

[W.E.G.]

Woe be unto anything that finds itself in front of any bullet that starts with a 4.

As they say, "What comes out of there aint sofa pillers."

 

[JTQ]

Elmer Keith was a semi-wadcutter fan.

Here is an article that shows how a semi-wadcutter profile can be an advantage over a ball round. It is about big game rifle bullets but the same should hold true at pistol speeds.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

 

[orangeninja]

It's not that a poorly expanded bullet is useless. But every expert and study on the subject have concluded, with good cause, that more expansion is better so long as the bullet retains most of its weight. And expansions are not trivial - good quality SD loads will achieve 80% expansion, so a .40" bullet becomes .78" in the wound channel, while a .40" SWC pretty much stays at .40". It's the difference between sticking your pinky or your thumb in someone's chest. Both hurt but the thumb hurts a heck of a lot more.

Btw, was recently out with my son using old aluminum fry pans as targets. Shooting .38special, .357Mag, .45Colt and 30-30. The JHP in each caliber had fantastic expansion. The JSP 30-30s had the jacket stripped off and the lead core remained intact. The SWC .38s and .45s had absolutely no expansion. Some of those bullets could have been used again. the biggest holes in the Pam's, visible at 10 yards, we're the JHPs.

I'm not saying JHP or any HP isn't more desirable than an FMJ or wadcutter as a defensive round, my point is that we often place way too much emphasis on it as it is one of the few factors in a defensive shooting scenario we actually can control. It might be worth noting that the FBI and most law enforcement agencies that use their research for ammo selection place emphasis on penetration and non-fragmentation as priorities 1 and 2. Expansion is great but no substitute for shot placement and lastly a human body is highly elastic, meaning any wound channel or cavity is likely to snap back into place whether "pinky" or "thumb". There is not enough velocity to result in a hydrostatic shock cavity like that of a rifle where all kinds of crap gets shifted around.

JHPs and HPs are fine but our warfighters have been using FMJ and the like for well over a century now with good results. I would not feel under gunned in a .40 carrying SWC if that's all I had. Just my opinion.

 

[bluetopper]

I'm in the corner for LSWC all the way. My cast lead bullets/reloads is all I ever shoot in handguns.

The problem arises when you go to court after the fact.

 

[Old Scratch]

I have used 45ACP 255gr SWC for 20+ years for ALL purposes. I also use 45 Colt 300gr SWCs. They are accurate and remarkably effective on critters large and small. They cut a mean hole that goes all the way through; the target leaks from both ends. Lead SWCs work!

 

[Drail]

This one time....we were at the range with a pickup load of water filled 1 gal. jugs and using them to test penetration and expansion on the Winchester Black Talons when they were first introduced. All .45 ACP cal. The Talons would all make it through 3 jugs and stop in the fourth and expand perfectly. Nasty looking things that would cut your fingers just holding it. Sharp jagged petals. I decided to see how far a hard cast 200 gr. SWC would go through water jugs. Lined up 7 of them and fired one round. We never found it. Not nearly as big a splash as the Talons. SWCs just keep going and going.....

 

[Browns Fan]

I shoot IDPA, and I am amazed by the way an unjacketted lead bullet seems to change it's shape when it strikes a target. You dont get the nice clean holes that the copper jacket bullets leave. I would think that a lead bullet would be devastating.

 

[Deputy25]

My wife's Smith M-19 is loaded with .38+P LSWC. She doesn't miss with it. Terminal performance aside, you have to hit them to hurt them.

 

[Michigan Trigger]

Thank you all for the info...there are a lot of cool points of view for the lead SWCs listed here. I do remember that Elmer Keith really promoted this type of bullet for big game hunting as well as target shooting. I'm sure hitting crook invading my home with a .40 bullet that has in excess of 400ft/lbs energy will likely incapacitate him & remove the threat to my family, regardless if the bullet was a JHP or LSWC.

 

[JTQ]

Ball ammo in .40 S&W (at least 180 gr) is basically a semi-wadcutter design. They are flat point bullets rather than the pointy or round nose of 9MM and .45ACP.

 

[wally]

Where you place the bullet on the target has far more to do with handgun effectiveness that which bullet it happens to be.

Most folks feel better carrying JHP.

 

[mes227]

Where you place the bullet on the target has far more to do with handgun effectiveness that which bullet it happens to be.

Unquestionably true. But that does not mean that bullet size and bullet style isn't also important. Thus the FBI spends a fortune annually on testing ammo and very few people carry a .22LR.

 

[NG VI]

If it's between that or FMJ, or you spend a lot of time in the woods and hogs or other biggish animals hang out there, do it. Great for the range too.

If you can get some even middling JHP though, I would suggest it would be best to carry those. There is literally no objectively good reason not to, unless hogzilla is a real possibility in your area.

 

[Skylerbone]

The particular hardness must be factored in when shooting lead. I've dug out plenty of slugs more than double their original size and plenty more that were as new, from railroad ties. Depends on what you're shooting and what you're shooting at. The case for JHP is made for people protecting themselves from other people. It's less frequent that you'll need to shoot through a car or walls of your home. What is loaded should be matched to your likely needs.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The SWC might have a tiny edge over a FMJ, but will still only make a hole the size of the bullet. Remember they were designed to give deep penetration on game animals. I would prefer to make my holes as large as possible.