Led ball with no patch

[keith strand]

Another question: I asked the question on my facebook, about ball size & patch size. Someone said that they load there ball with no patch. They said that they pour in powder then a wad, then a True bore size ball.
My question is: It has always been my understanding that the patch keep led from filling the rifling groves over time. And of course to seal the ball when fired. What say ye?

 

[ontarget]

Maybe they are shooting a smooth bore?

 

[keith strand]

Maybe they are shooting a smooth bore?

That was my first thought. But he said Rifling. I never heard of this.

 

[stringnut]

Some rifles as well smoothbores were loaded with a ball that was slightly larger than the bore. This was the original method. It , of course, significantly increased loading time as the ball had to literally be driven down the bore. With no lube fouling quickly made it impossible to get the ball seated. Patching with a lubed patch kept the loadjng effort down a bit and helped soften the fouling.
I have never used this procedure and it scares the crap out of me. Impacting black powder seems dangerous. Certainly the over the powder wad is important. I have seen it done with a reproduction German target rifle if I remember correctly. It was quit a process. Accuracy was very good,but, it seems like the gent cleaned every shot. Surely someone here knows more about than me.

 

[alsaqr]

Then there is the problem of leading the bore.

 

[keith strand]

Then there is the problem of leading the bore.

That was my thought.

 

[milemaker13]

I agree with you guys. Sounds like it could lead to all kinds of adverse issues. A German target rifle, imaginably designed this way, sure. A standard BP rifle (or even musket) as we know it? Not so much.

I built my BP rifle from a kit when I was a kid, and it shows. Along the years its been neglected at times and the bore isn't the prettiest thing at the dance, but she still shoots ok.
I shoot .490 patched balls and even they take effort to seat. Even more so going the other way after a misfire, add in worrying about losing the ball and needing to try again ( stripped threads is stripped threads).
Point is, I can't really imagine trying to do all that with an oversized ball with no patch. Actually the smooth bore could be worse, as you'd have full contact vs just the lands...

 

[Erwan]

Another question: I asked the question on my facebook, about ball size & patch size. Someone said that they load there ball with no patch. They said that they pour in powder then a wad, then a True bore size ball.
My question is: It has always been my understanding that the patch keep led from filling the rifling groves over time. And of course to seal the ball when fired. What say ye?

Well, I say that is't my way: I always shoot with a lubricated patch Wonderlube, TC Bore butter or sometime mutton tallow grease Gatofeo's recipe...
The patch 'll take the grooves and the bullet without plombing the bore and mostly gives you a better accuracy...
You can foud how to calculate the basic patch in a some Lyman book or this: https://www.lymanproducts.com/media/user/file/t/r/trade_rifle_p1.pdf

I prefer grease and patches now than mercury some time later...

 

[drobs]

Here's some cast retail ball diameters & retail patches you could play with to get some general ideas.

Ball:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/2

Patch:
http://possibleshop.com/s-s-patch.html

Maybe a .429 dia ball + a 0.015 thick patch or .429 ball and 0.10 patch.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

To the OP,
From your post it sounds like it, but are you certain your facebook friend means they load a round ball with no patch?
If they are loading a lubed conical bullet, minie ball, or sabot then no patch would be expected. One or two misplaced or exchanged words or terms in the conversation could make all the difference.

 

[Erwan]

That's right and I didn't think about this.

Me too when I'm shooting at 100yds with minié bullets (not real Minié in this rifle) I never use patches with the Tryon...

 

[PapaG]

Probably a couple million of us have shot maxi, minie, and REAL bullets without problems, but they are well lubricated (except sometimes the minies). Leading would be my first concern with the second being accuracy as you'd have to deform an oversize ball to get it started.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah it sounds like the person on Facebook was referring to a minnie-ball as a "ball" when they are more often called "conical" bullets. On the other hand some fellows do paper patch their muzzle loading conical bullets..., and perhaps meant his conical wasn't paper patched.

You can shoot an unpatched, round ball through a rifled barrel, and they do shoot pretty straight, for about 25 yards. Explains how the guys who learned to "load on the run" could do it and hit something..., the "something" was probably chasing them and at under 25 yards.

LD

 

[WestKentucky]

My .45 rifle likes a slightly oversized ball with no patch. It gets very dirty very quickly but it shoots very nicely then all at once accuracy drops off. I don’t shoot smoke poles often, but I have yet to find a load that shoots in that gun if it has a patch.

 

[kBob]

In the mid 1970's I shot an original Jager rifle from the early 1700's. With that flinter one sat an over sized ball on the muzzle and struck it with a hammer to start the ball into the rifling, then a short starter and the hammer were used to get the ball an inch or two into the bore, then the heavy Iron Ram Rod was used to hammer the ball down tight on the loose powder. Driving that ball back and inch or two per WACK with that iron ram rod in that steel barrel with that loose black underneath was hair raising.

My understanding is that the earliest models of the British Baker rifle (itself based on the Jadger or Jager rifle) used a bare over sized ball and that a hammer was a part of the individual shooters gear.....but that all things got better when a patched ball was used. BTW Baker Riflemen also trained to fire a bare undersized ball with out a patch for close range quick shooting, supposedly this was not less accurate than a common musket with bare ball.

The patched ball is often cited as an American idea and one that greatly changed the military use of rifled shoulder arms. It was however known in Europe at the same time.

Given that at the time of the arguments about how many angels danced on the head of a spinning rifle bullet the hammering of an oversized ball was pretty much standard, my answer would have been none as they all got smashed flat in loading.

-kBob

 

[milemaker13]

I suppose hammering an iron rod into a steel barrel full of BP would have been hair raising to say the least.

 

[Erwan]

The patched ball is often cited as an American idea and one that greatly changed the military use of rifled shoulder arms. It was however known in Europe at the same time.

I can read someting about that in one old of my books:

The first guns fired simple stones, or iron shot recovered from the forges (before it was prohibited). Spherical bullets were quickly invented, cast in pure lead, then in lead alloyed with antimony and arsenic to harden it. The gunpowder was initially loaded separately by the mouth of the gun or pistol or barrel. Until the 19th century, it was necessary to calepin the bullets of rifle, that is to say to roll them up in a piece of cotton, cloth or greased paper (the cartridge) in order to ensure the best possible output of the shooting by better adjusting the projectile to the bore of the barrel by reducing the gaps (wind) through which gases escape instead of pushing the bullet, and to increase the rate of shooting.
(Translated with DeepL Translator)

Sorry for using the translator but I can't write correctly all that in your langage so I hope that you can understand it, this is not very important but can come after what you did say about patches........
Patches were used by this maner too and for a long time for the smooth bores barrels too...

Other way: all my ramrods are in polished stainless steel EN 1.4462...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hammering the ball into the bore was long gone by at least the first quarter of the 18th century, i.e. the early 1700's. If a person had you, the modern person, hammer a ball into a jaeger rifle from that time period, what happened was they learned of the myth, and assumed that was the proper procedure...and were lucky the ball flew straight at all. German Jaegers are well documented as using patched ball in the 1750's and the AWI here in North America.

The patched ball was a German/Swiss invention as far as we can tell from journals of the time period from the late 16th century...yes the 1500's, and from what early historian report, though they don't always cite a source for their conclusions. It appears, though unconfirmed, that a Swiss fellow first came up with a rifled barrel. First, it's tough to tell if he was the actual inventor, and second in those days Switzerland, Austria, Germany, and Czechoslovakia were a mish mash of tiny principalities..., so not only did folks not identify as "German" or "Swiss" etc, and more like, "Ansbacher" or "Hanauer" or "Kesselman", you have the problem of whether or not the location where an invention is documented is the same as the origin of the inventor. So if an invention like rifling was documented in Vienna, but the inventor was from Florence, is the invention Viennese or Florentine ?? Further there is debate that the first barrels were "grooved" aka "straight rifled" [oxymoron term] to facilitate less cleaning and easier loading..., perhaps with the ball forced onto the rifling after a wad was added between it and the powder. When then did the twist come into play?

The hammer for the British Baker, a rifle of the Napoleonic Wars, was to clear the rifle in combat. If the rifleman got a ball jammed in a dirty barrel, he could force it down upon the powder and then shoot it free. It was not part of the normal loading procedure. The Baker had a very slow twist rate 1:120 to facilitate loading a dirty barrel in short time, and to give enough spin to stabilize the ball out to 300 yards. Accuracy was not great..., it was meant to take an enemy soldier or officer out of action on a battlefield. So if one aimed at the fellow's head at 300 yards and lobbed a .600 caliber ball into his shin...the job was accomplished. It was not meant for hunting. The Germanic Jaeger Rifle and it's American stepson, the Long Rifle were hunting weapons used for war.

LD