Legality of "flipping" guns?

[jos2f]

Lot of good information here, thanks guys. Seems unwise to buy any gun with sole purpose of reselling it.

Even still, no wise man passes up on a good deal for a gun for his personal collection

 

[22lr]

Buy the gun, run a box of shells though it and go sell it. Just say you decided you didnt like it. Honestly who cares.

 

[subknave]

The C&R license was meant to facilitate transfers of collector guns between and among licensed collectors, not to provide guns to non-licensees without any checks.

You are entirely correct. Anytime I buy a non C&R firearm I still have to fill out the forms etc. If I sell anything to a nonlicensee that is C&R their drivers license information has to go into my log book and any acquisitions obtained through my license have to be logged as well. If it isn't C&R it is just like any other person. That is why I rarely sell to individuals without it going through an FFL. As a matter of fact I would rather sell to someone out of state so it has to go through an FFL than sell to an individual face to face. I think I have maybe sold <5 guns FTF in the last 3 years and 2 were to relatives.

 

[jbech123]

Honestly who cares.

Well the point of the whole thread is whether ATF cares. Believe me if they care about something you are doing...you will care pretty quickly as well.

 

[leadcounsel]

The trick is to define dealing in firearms, which is vague. But just ask yourself if it passes the 'reasonable' test. Can you reasonbly say you are not making a routine profit in buying and selling firearms.

There are several factors:
1) Frequency
2) Time between purchase and sale
3) Price - is there a suspcious price such as 5 or 10 time the actual value (straw purchase) or a lot less than the actual value (stolen), meaning some evidence of illegit transfers
4) Type of firearm - grandpas pump .410 vs. repeated AK47s that you couldn't legitimately say you bought but just didn't care for.
5) Amount of time devoted to this 'hobby' or 'business.'

 

[goon]

Well the point of the whole thread is whether ATF cares. Believe me if they care about something you are doing...you will care pretty quickly as well.

I've had some interaction with the ATF.
The ones I've talked with seemed like pretty decent, regular people.
They are not going to care about a guy making a few bucks on a gun deal once or twice in his life.
There really isn't any way that you could even come to their attention for an occasional deal where you make $50 or so on a gun - at least not unless you all the sudden got a guilty conscience and sent in a signed confession detailing how you bought a used Ruger 10/22 last month and sold it for exactly $62 more than you paid for it. Even then, whoever read your confession would probably think to himself "What a waste of my time", then toss your confession in the trash.

Look at it from their point of view - it is to going to be worth their time to come and track down one guy who bought one gun and later sold it for few more bucks than he paid for it?

What they are going to care about is the guy who buys a dozen guns and then sells them to people who shouldn't have them from the trunk of his car. Eventually, something will catch up with that guy to get the ATF's attention.
But for you, me, or the OP, the ATF probably couldn't care less.

FWIW, I know this because I probably did manage to break a federal gun law once. I called the ATF and asked for advice as soon as I realized it. The guy I spoke to in the Pittsburgh field office told me "Yep, that was probably illegal. Don't worry about it though - just don't do it again."

 

[sharpetop]

My take as a former business owner is this. If I had an employee who made over $600 a year, I was required to either take out taxes or issue a 1099 at the end of the year.

I don't know the legalities of "flipping guns", but I'll wager if you go over a certain dollar amount of profit, the IRS wants their cut.

 

[Corey]

I used to know an ATF inspector and talked with him regularly. I asked about this and he said they basically look at the individual circumstances and make a determination. In other words, they take it on a case by case basis and use some common sense. What he told me is that as a rule of thumb if you own the guns for more than a year and you have shot them, it doesn't matter how many you sell, but there can be exceptions. For example, a guy they see at three different gunshows with a table full of 1st and 2nd Generation Colt SAA's will be viewed differently than the guy a three different gun shows with a table full of Glocks.

I went to a gun show a couple of years ago where three people were arrested by ATF for dealing without a license. All three had previously been warned by ATF that they needed FFLs as ATF considered them dealers. They chose to ignore the warnings and continue selling guns and paid for it. In their cases what they were doing was rather blatant and ATF still chose to give a warning first.

My own opinion is that if you feel you are getting away with something or skirting the law, then you probably shouldn't do it. And if someone from ATF says don't do that anymore then you thank them for the warning and comply with it.

 

[tinygnat219]

It depends on your local laws. In VA for example, I could purchase a firearm and then gift it to my son, or swap it with someone outside the store as long as they were a legal resident. I have done swaps a couple of times with members of this board for another firearm, or for straight up cash.

I don't think the ATF would really take issue with one or two such deals. 10 or more, and I think that's when they start taking issue.

 

[nalioth]

I could purchase a firearm and then gift it to my son, or swap it with someone outside the store as long as they were a legal resident.

Neither 'gifting' nor 'swapping' is "dealing".

"Dealing" involves money.

 

[mgregg85]

Technically you need a liscense but I've always found that the guns I've sold didn't fit my hand right.

 

[Colonel]

I believe the law says that if you are "engaged in the business" of selling firearms, then you must have an FFL.

If you're doing it to make a profit, I (and probably a judge) would say that's "engaged in the business."