Jamie B
Member
I read the original account by Ayoob in AH a couple of years ago.
Lot of respect for the Marine, as he handles himself well.
Lot of respect for the Marine, as he handles himself well.
Lessons from a retired Marine
- Thread starter The Lone Haranguer
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First off, cudos to the marine.
Now, as to the "bring enough gun" comments. He lived, one of his attackers didn't and the other had no fight left in him - by definition, it was "enough gun" that time. So the guy ran 300 yards. Deer run 300 yards after chest shot by a .300 Win Mag at times. Doesn't mean a .300 Win Mag isn't enough gun for deer, or that a .30-30 or .243 is way to light.
People are tougher than they are generally given credit for. Most "stops" by handguns that do not involve hitting the central nervous system, perforating the heart or breaking major bones are either from psycological effects or happen several seconds after the person has been shot. Before anyone quotes stopping percentages please think - according to those charts a .357 has the same stopping percentage as a .308 ..... now do you think that data might be sqewed?
A person hyped on adrenalin, not to mention we have no way of knowing what else the robber may have been on, can go a long way in 3 seconds. It's completely possible the guy would have still made it 300 yards after being hit with a .50 AE in the same spot. You want gauaranteed stopping power from a less than ideal hit? Then carry a centerfire rifle - and from the reports that have come back from Iraq and Afganistan, .223 isn't going to be big enough.
It's completely possible the 2nd robber would have never been found had he been hit in the same place with a .22. It's also completely possible he would have been dead when found, and at less than 300 yards. A millimeter diference in the line of the wound channel can mean the difference between bleeding out and walking away.
As far as the bring enough ammo type of comments. Gunfights tend to go last as many shots as it takes till they are over. If you run out of ammo, it's "over". With most modern autos, and the (realitivly) anemic power of handguns, it's completely possible to empty the gun at / into someone who was "stopped" by the first round befroe they have a chance to fall. There was a case in Florida where a cab driver was being robbed and fired back with a .45. He fired 7 or 8 shots (empting the gun) as fast as he could pull the trigger, all hits at 5 - 7 feet and the last round actualy went into the guys shoulder area as he was falling forward (he was dead before he hit the ground and likely before the gun was empty). This compares a lot with the incident with the marine. The first robber haddn't fallen, but was clearly out of the fight.
Personally, from the results of his shooting against the first robber, I'd bet that had the second robber decided to stick around rather than run, several of those other three bullets would have been in robber number 2.
Now, as to the "bring enough gun" comments. He lived, one of his attackers didn't and the other had no fight left in him - by definition, it was "enough gun" that time. So the guy ran 300 yards. Deer run 300 yards after chest shot by a .300 Win Mag at times. Doesn't mean a .300 Win Mag isn't enough gun for deer, or that a .30-30 or .243 is way to light.
People are tougher than they are generally given credit for. Most "stops" by handguns that do not involve hitting the central nervous system, perforating the heart or breaking major bones are either from psycological effects or happen several seconds after the person has been shot. Before anyone quotes stopping percentages please think - according to those charts a .357 has the same stopping percentage as a .308 ..... now do you think that data might be sqewed?
A person hyped on adrenalin, not to mention we have no way of knowing what else the robber may have been on, can go a long way in 3 seconds. It's completely possible the guy would have still made it 300 yards after being hit with a .50 AE in the same spot. You want gauaranteed stopping power from a less than ideal hit? Then carry a centerfire rifle - and from the reports that have come back from Iraq and Afganistan, .223 isn't going to be big enough.
It's completely possible the 2nd robber would have never been found had he been hit in the same place with a .22. It's also completely possible he would have been dead when found, and at less than 300 yards. A millimeter diference in the line of the wound channel can mean the difference between bleeding out and walking away.
As far as the bring enough ammo type of comments. Gunfights tend to go last as many shots as it takes till they are over. If you run out of ammo, it's "over". With most modern autos, and the (realitivly) anemic power of handguns, it's completely possible to empty the gun at / into someone who was "stopped" by the first round befroe they have a chance to fall. There was a case in Florida where a cab driver was being robbed and fired back with a .45. He fired 7 or 8 shots (empting the gun) as fast as he could pull the trigger, all hits at 5 - 7 feet and the last round actualy went into the guys shoulder area as he was falling forward (he was dead before he hit the ground and likely before the gun was empty). This compares a lot with the incident with the marine. The first robber haddn't fallen, but was clearly out of the fight.
Personally, from the results of his shooting against the first robber, I'd bet that had the second robber decided to stick around rather than run, several of those other three bullets would have been in robber number 2.
merlinfire
Member
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- 793
Caliber wars? Check.
Straw men? Check.
Just another day in the land of "serious business".
Seriously, this is basically a personal decision. If its a caliber that meets what is commonly considered the minimum caliber requirement (.380 or higher, generally) and it has 7+ rounds, it is probably enough for the majority of encounters. Remember, according to gunfacts.org, 92% of successful gun defenses do not involve wounding the assailant. However, more is better - but only if it does not make it so inconvenient that it causes you to carry less frequently.
As has been said elsewhere:
Carry the biggest gun you can "stomach", with the largest capacity that is practicable, and reloads are up to you. The unlikelihood that any of us will ever need to use our weapons, and the realities of daily carry (and practice) must be balanced. If you live in a more dangerous area, for instance, that might play a factor in what loadout.
Straw men? Check.
Just another day in the land of "serious business".
Seriously, this is basically a personal decision. If its a caliber that meets what is commonly considered the minimum caliber requirement (.380 or higher, generally) and it has 7+ rounds, it is probably enough for the majority of encounters. Remember, according to gunfacts.org, 92% of successful gun defenses do not involve wounding the assailant. However, more is better - but only if it does not make it so inconvenient that it causes you to carry less frequently.
As has been said elsewhere:
Carry the biggest gun you can "stomach", with the largest capacity that is practicable, and reloads are up to you. The unlikelihood that any of us will ever need to use our weapons, and the realities of daily carry (and practice) must be balanced. If you live in a more dangerous area, for instance, that might play a factor in what loadout.
Snowy Rivers
Member
Very interesting thread for sure.
What if is all about your location. Where I live, fairly benign. Up in Portland (Oregon)after dark, all bets are off.
We could beat the caliber wars until we are all blurry eyed.
Lets ask this question, when does your handgun caliber go "A Bridge too far"
If a 380, 38spl, 357 is good and a 40 or 45 is better, then why not a 454 casul or 500smith magnum. ???
Maybe over penetration ????? Ya think.
The caliber wars rage on and Snowy sits back to ponder where the thread will go next.
Good stuff though, all valid points and ideas for sure.
Snowy
What if is all about your location. Where I live, fairly benign. Up in Portland (Oregon)after dark, all bets are off.
We could beat the caliber wars until we are all blurry eyed.
Lets ask this question, when does your handgun caliber go "A Bridge too far"
If a 380, 38spl, 357 is good and a 40 or 45 is better, then why not a 454 casul or 500smith magnum. ???
Maybe over penetration ????? Ya think.
The caliber wars rage on and Snowy sits back to ponder where the thread will go next.
Good stuff though, all valid points and ideas for sure.
Snowy
As a former Marine and a retired State Police Officer I can tell you that when and if you ever have to defend your life against another armed person you will not use the sights on your handgun,you will not use any certain stance, and you will point and shoot,that is if you want to stay alive.In most armed encounters you will fire 2-4 shots within 3 secs and that will determine the out come of the battle.
Practice shooting at close ranges of appx. 6ft out to about 30 ft. at 6ft you will not have time to aim and you will not even think about it,what you will think about is stopping the criminal from killing you.In order to survive you must shoot faster than your suspect and you must hit him center mass.You have to practice point shooting at very close ranges in order to survive a real gun fight,which is not what you read in some magazines.
Practice shooting at close ranges of appx. 6ft out to about 30 ft. at 6ft you will not have time to aim and you will not even think about it,what you will think about is stopping the criminal from killing you.In order to survive you must shoot faster than your suspect and you must hit him center mass.You have to practice point shooting at very close ranges in order to survive a real gun fight,which is not what you read in some magazines.
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