Libertarians Propose Taking Breyer's Land

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Furthermore, as almost any sort of development that is new (even new-build housing) will provide more of a tax base than any sort of existing residential land, what this means is, de facto, the government can take your land. Period.

The truly cynical will note that this means that if your local government now feels that you're not paying enough in taxes, they can simly oust you and put in someone who they think will.

And the truly cynical will now note that every church and parcel of church-held land is now on the block, as church property is, IIRC, tax exempt. By definition, anything that is put up in place of something that pays zero taxes is a net gain for the public coffers, ergo it is public use.

Make no mistake, Kelo is a terrible decision. When you get down to brass tacks, it means the government can take your land, with no meaningful restraint or limitation.

Mike
 
It just reaffirms what many have said over the years. We don't own our land; we rent it from the gov't. If we didn't pay our rent (in the form of taxes), the landlord could take it from us. Now, under Kelo, if the landlord finds a better deal, it can break the lease and evict us.
 
First of all, Eminent Domain is not the taking of land for private uses. Eminent Domain is the concept of the government's ability to take land. In the U.S. Constitution, it's limited to taking for public uses with just compensation. Being "in support of eminent domain" and being in support of "taking private land for private uses" are emphatically NOT the same thing.

Secondly, there's a lot of space between being "in support" of something, and mandating that same thing as a matter of law. Your argument is analogous to stating that a baseball manager doesn't support steroid use if he doesn't mandate that every player use steroids (He just looks the other way and covers a few backsides while 5 or 6 guys on the cusp gear up.) Obviously, if he's facilitating and allowing steroid use among his players, he supports it. That's what "support" means. Similarly, if the Supreme Court is telling state governments, who it has previously found are bound by the 5th Amendment, that they are allowed to disregard the words "for public use" and engage in takings for private use instead, then they're "in support of" eminent domain takings for private uses. Don't take my word for it. The decision says very clearly that the logic used to support this decision is that by taking land for a private use which increases tax revenues, the public benefits (because we all know that higher tax revenues, by definition, mean public benefit.) Furthermore, the decision continues, if these private uses benefit the public ( a VERY big "if") then they must be considered "public uses" and not private uses. Therefore, the decision concludes, private uses which result in higher tax revenue are actually NOT private uses (your third grade English teacher was an idiot) but, in fact, public uses, and therefore magically become legal under the Constitution.
Before we go farther, we must recognize that the originalist intepretation is not the same thing as the plain-text interpretation. To understand the meaning of "public use," we must examine the original meaning of the term and not simply the dictionary definitions of the words. That said, I do indeed agree with your interpretation of "public use."

The Supreme Court's actions were in support of the idea that local legislatures are better able to make decisions about what is "public use" than the federal courts. This has been the way the Supreme Court has handled eminent domain cases for some time. Kelo is simply an extension of the theory that the Supreme Court is not the right body to make every decision about whether or not the proposed taking is for a "public use."

Here's a quote from Stevens:

The disposition of this case therefore turns on the question whether the City’s development plan serves a “public purpose.” Without exception, our cases have defined that concept broadly, reflecting our longstanding policy of deference to legislative judgments in this field.
The decision also places a restriction further than "I want it." Again, from Stevens:
It is further argued that without a bright-line rule nothing would stop a city from transferring citizen A’s property to citizen B for the sole reason that citizen B will put the property to a more productive use and thus pay more taxes. Such a one-to-one transfer of property, executed outside the confines of an integrated development plan, is not presented in this case.
Now, clearly, this is not much of a restriction in practical terms. However, the Supreme Court is saying that there needs to be some evidence that the project will improve the community in some way beyond increased tax revenues. As local legislatures will determine whether or not this is true, the provision is not very important in practical terms. However, what we say from this is that, again, the Supreme Court is deferring to local legislatures in determining what constitutes "public use" whenever possible.

I should be clear that I do not agree with this reasoning, I am simply explaining it.

Marshall, it seems you believe I support eminent domain. I do not support eminent domain in any form, including for the construction of highways or any other classic example you may think of. I am simply trying to explain the logic of the decision.

In terms of my view of what the decision should have been, I believe the interpretation of "public use" should be that government needs to own the seized property in the future, as well as that the project cannot be done without the taking.
 
Vang, here's the point you're missing. The Court redefined and expanded "public use." Discussions about standards, proper venue, etc. are completely secondary to that basic point. Without the redefinition of the term to include public benefit even if from private actions, nothing else would have mattered because nothing else would have been allowed.
 
Not Hypocrisy

The Judiciary said it is a given State's responsibility to determine ED laws. I agree, because it is not delegated to the FedGov to do so.

Now each state must rule on the subject. But there is a plan. Attack the rich and powerful in an abuse of ED law. Now the rich and powerful fight this in the legislature and the courts. Such abuses are struck down and prevented in the future for ALL people in the state, guaranteeing property rights.

Strategic thinking at its best, seems like an awesome plan to me.

-DW
 
buzz_knox, the decision was the logical extension of prior decisions, not some new logic.
 
Vang,


Maybe I'm just dense, but can you explain how your quote:
It is further argued that without a bright-line rule nothing would stop a city from transferring citizen A’s property to citizen B for the sole reason that citizen B will put the property to a more productive use and thus pay more taxes. Such a one-to-one transfer of property, executed outside the confines of an integrated development plan, is not presented in this case.

is a restriction? Where does it say, "thou shalt not", or "it is therefore illegal to", or something similar?
 
The quote is saying that this case is not an example of a situation where the taking is simply a transfer from party A to be party B. The implication is that such a transfer is not public use, especially considering the mandate of a development plan.
 
Let's assume, as is the current view, that the Fourteenth Amendment fully "incorporates" the Fifth to the States. The Fifth Amendment does not create a power in government to take land for private use, but only for public use after just compensation. Public means NOT PRIVATE. This is its historical meaning in our nation and in the English usage. It is also clearly what the Founders meant by it, which can be verified by their writings on the matter. Therefore, assuming incorporation of the Fifth Amendment, the taking must not only be accompanied by due process (Fourteenth Amendment), and not only must there be due compensation (Fifth Amendment via the Fourteenth), but it must also be for a public use ONLY (Fifth Amendment via the Fourteenth). If, therefore, it is taken and given to a private individual or group for a private use (the Fifth Amendment does not refer to any use which provides more tax dollars for the State, but strictly to public use, which means what it says), it violates the Fifth Amendment, and is actionable in the Federal Courts, where Federal Judges are duty bound to prevent the taking by over ruling the State and lower Federal Courts.

Clearly, then, this is a wrong decision, and the Justices in question deserve to be among the first victims of this ruling. Hell, they deserve to be removed from office, unless their argument is that the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges and Immunities clause does not in fact accomplish incorporation, in which case it would be the State Constitution in question which ought to prevail, as judged by the appropriate State Supreme Court. Absent that, however, this is clearly a bad decision.
 
You still aren't understanding the reasoning of the case. The problem is that determining what a "public use" is is a complicated question. I would, however, agree with you that the taking in Kelo is not a public use.

Seeing as it is such a complicated issue, the Supreme Court has chosen to give the power to choose to the local governments, only intervening in clear-cut cases

You might say it's a black and white issue, but it isn't. These are hard calls. I agree with you in terms of what is a public use, but you simply can't consider it cut and dry. Compare it to the 2nd, an amendment which is very clear. The 2nd has no ambiguous terms; it says "to keep and bear arms" and "shall not be infringed." Is there any ambiguity there? Perhaps a little on the historical meaning of "keep" and "bear" (that is, does the second give me a right to concealed carry, open carry, both?), but nothing compared to the 5th.

The 5th says "public use" and "just compensation." Both of those terms are quite difficult to pin down in an exact manner. For that reason, the Supreme Court is willing to leave the issue to the states wherever possible.
 
You still aren't understanding the reasoning of the case. The problem is that determining what a "public use" is is a complicated question.
Not at all. In the 18th and 19th Centuries, our courts understood it to mean, NOT PRIVATE. The slippery slope started with the railroads, which were privately owned, but would provide a public benefit. After that, "public use" came to mean "public benefit." The solution is to go back to where the slippery slope started, i.e., where "public use" became "public benefit," and take a step back from the precipice.
I would, however, agree with you that the taking in Kelo is not a public use.

Seeing as it is such a complicated issue, the Supreme Court has chosen to give the power to choose to the local governments, only intervening in clear-cut cases

You might say it's a black and white issue, but it isn't. These are hard calls. I agree with you in terms of what is a public use, but you simply can't consider it cut and dry. Compare it to the 2nd, an amendment which is very clear. The 2nd has no ambiguous terms; it says "to keep and bear arms" and "shall not be infringed." Is there any ambiguity there? Perhaps a little on the historical meaning of "keep" and "bear" (that is, does the second give me a right to concealed carry, open carry, both?), but nothing compared to the 5th.

The 5th says "public use" and "just compensation." Both of those terms are quite difficult to pin down in an exact manner.
It was not difficult until the 20th Century. Public use simply means NOT PRIVATE use. Isn't that simple? The courts thought it was just that simple for well over a century. "Just compensation" means that the victim must be made whole again. The law knows how to make people whole in civil suits. Just apply that approach and you are doing just fine. What's so complicated?
For this rason, the Supreme Court is willing to leave the issue to the states wherever possible.
Interesting that they should leave this to the States when they leave so little of anything else to the States. If the Fourteenth Amendment makes the enforcement of the Fifth Amendment at the state level a Federal issue, then it is a Federal issue in its entirety.
 
You know? I'm a pretty big States' Rights advocate, but not when it comes down to protection of individual rights. The right to ownership of property might not be enumerated in the US Constitution, but it certainly is well understood by all.

Here we have a case where the SCOTUS has an opportunity to preserve and protect that right, and they have chosen not to do so. Yes, they have pulled back and allowed state government and state constitutional law to govern the cases, but when dealing with basic civil rights like ownership of property, that is tantamount to Pilate washing his hands of the matter.

Simply odious.

Mike
 
The right to ownership of property might not be enumerated in the US Constitution ...
"Nor shall any State deprive any person of property without due process of law." Fourteenth Amendmenth. The right to life and liberty are protected in exactly the same way.
 
Even more to the point, let's take a hypothetical case from the same amendment.

If the City of New London's police force arrests a guy, chucks him in court and he "Pleads the Fifth" and the prosecutor forces him to testify anyway and the judge fails to sustain the objection, what will happen to this case? Running with the wild-arsed assumption that this could even happen, and that the state appelate and supreme courts failed to reverse, there would be a federal case to be made for violation of this hypothetical defendant's constitutional rights. You can darn betcha that, if it got that far, SCOTUS would affirm his right to remain silent. This is a federal issue.

Now, as this is a hypothetical, let's not let it hijack the discussion. I'm merely using it to illustrate my earlier point.

Mike
 
"Nor shall any State deprive any person of property without due process of law." Fourteenth Amendmenth. The right to life and liberty are protected in exactly the same way.
Point taken. I suppose you could say it is backhandedly enumerated in Amendment V, too. Still, I think all of us are on board with the idea that ownership of property is a basic right, regardless of how we define "enumerated".

Mike
 
If a corporation/party goes forward with bulldozing Breyer's/Souter's lands to put up a strip mall, I will seriously consider investing in that corporation/party. :evil:
 
"Interesting that they should leave this to the States when they leave so little of anything else to the States."

This quote illustrates my theory that the object of all levels of gov't is to conspire to, as Slickster says, "rein in the rights of the people." Getting rights away from the people is the underlying reason for everything that happens in gov't. In this case, the SCOTUS realizes that letting all states and the vast number of county and city gov'ts. "interpret" property rights in such a way as to benefit themselves will eventually trash this right of the people. And there will be a DIVERSITY in the methods of doing this. The only way to combat it is to have individual laws enacted in EVERY juristiction to stop the abuse. If the SCOTUS simply let the founder's "interpretation" stand, none of this other law making would be needed. The time saved in the various juristictions would be rather large. But if you can keep the people constantly fighting to keep the rights GUARANTEED [not granted] by the BoR, you can gradually wear them down. An editor of perhaps the major newspaper in this far north region says. "So what. If they want the shack I'm in, I'll just move to another one." He, and EDITOR in the MSM gives not a rat's pitute about this basic right that makes possible nearly everything in the world of commerece in these United States. Further, he says that any talk of rights, Bill of Rights or maintaining the Constitution is "wacky politics."

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

The McCain-Fiengold first amendment abortion, signed by POTUS and, so far, allowed to stand by SCOTUS is another example of "rein[ing] the rights of the people." Only AINOs approve of this. [AINO=American In Name Only] The NJ idea that you can't smoke while driving is another blatant example of getting the people more used to having more law in their faces.

But I digress.

No one who IS a REAL AMERICAN approves of the Property Piracy allowed by the SCOTUS.

rr
 
The McCain-Fiengold first amendment abortion
Good characterization, there. Political speech used to be considered "core First Amendment free speech," i.e., it could never be interfered with by any law. How far we have come from that ideal. Today, you literally need to consult a lawyer before you publish anything critical of a politician in office for fear of violating one of the many laws designed to limit this kind of "core First Amendment free speech." Thank you, George Bush, for "preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution" like you swore to do when you took office. :fire:
 
The 5th says "public use" and "just compensation." Both of those terms are quite difficult to pin down in an exact manner. For that reason, the Supreme Court is willing to leave the issue to the states wherever possible.

Once again, you're wrong. Just compensation is determined by a jury if the land owner disagrees with the offer. Public use was well-settled until Kelo. The Supremes engaged in judicial activism by redefining it. The states' role in this is now to decide when to act, not if they can.
 
Vang,

The quote is saying that this case is not an example of a situation where the taking is simply a transfer from party A to be party B. The implication is that such a transfer is not public use, especially considering the mandate of a development plan.

I still don't get where the restriction is laid out. I don't see that implication. The quote says that a bright line ruling would be necessary to prevent that activity. Where is the bright line ruling? Doesn't saying that A is necessary for B to not occur mean that while there is no A, then B can occur?

that such a transfer would be illegal. I only see it saying that the transfer would be questioned.
 
The decision mandated that projects have relevant development plans in order to procede, implying that some improvement of the community was also required beyond increased tax revenue.

Again, as I've said several times, I do not agree with the logic of the decision, nor do I think it makes much sense. I was simply trying to explain what the decision was, since most people seem to have a rather skewed idea of what it was.
 
Yet the Supremes allowed this project to proceed notwithstanding a rather blatant lack of evidence supporting the city's contentions. In other words, the city's statements concerning the validity of the project were sufficient rather than evidence supporting said statements.
 
Since when is "increasing the tax revenue to the state" considered "in the public interest"? Surely there are higly-taxed dictatorships. I think the very basis for the whole arguement is false.
 
Because the tax increase would not be an increase in the tax rate, but the tax base, which is indeed in the public increase.
 
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