Lights on Guns Bad Idea

[Blackhawk 6]

If concern about standing directly behind the light is of no concern, then why did the technique of holding the flashlight out to the side develop at all?

While I can not claim to be an expert in the evolution of flashlight techniques, I believe the technique you champion was originally developed by the FBI in the 40's or 50's. Flashlights were not very bright and were unable to project their beam any distance of consequense. Based on the technology of the time, this was probably the way to go, but as we know, the technology has improved significantly.

I offered a drill which I thought would help you understand some of the advantages that a weapon mounted light would provide within the context you specified. Evidently my powers of written expression have failed me in this regard. I am at a loss to help you conceptualize that your concerns over a weapon-mounted lighted are, in my opinion, misguided.

It seems you have decided upon a technique which works for you, as each of us must do. In the end, the best technique will be the one you are most comfortable with. Hopefully, neither of us will be required to use either method.

 

[fix]

For those advocating the "on and off" method of employing the light, you should be aware that your night vision is diminished (although not as much as the opponents) once you turn it on the first time inside a house. That's why I advocate turning it on and leaving it on until the threat is removed.

 

[Aikibiker]

What was that safety rule about not pointing a gun at something you don't want to put a bullet into?

It is worth remembering that the flashlight is mounted on a weapon not the other way around.

At least one firearms trainer has spoken out against people with weapons mounted lights using the light on the weapon as a general flashlight. And incidentally pointing the weapon at things the operator most likely didn't want to put a hole into.

I can certainly see the utility of a weapon mounted light for dedicated offensive action, but I would also want to have a spare flashlight to provide illumination of things and people I don't want to shoot.

YMMV

 

[Higgins]

Blackhawk, your points were well made and well-taken. The firing drill you suggested also was well-taken and understood. I do not disagree with the points you were making about the usefulness and utility of a pistol mounted light and the incredible disadvantages to an intruder in the given situation.

My only point was that pistol mounted lights come with a potential drawback. To you and others that drawback may be de minimus and worth accepting for the advantages offered. No problem. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill and am misguided, as you suggest. it wouldn't be the first time. But I think it is equally misguided to simply dismiss as wholly irrelevant and unimportant the potential advantage (however small) a pistol mounted light gives an armed intruder of immediately identifying a home owner's location and getting a shot off at that light. Especially when that advantage can be eliminated by using a technique that doesn't place the user directly behind the light.

And like I said, maybe it's all just academic debate akin to angels on pinheads and we'll both die old men who never had to fire a weapon in defense.

 

[sturmruger]

My Thoughts

This is an interesting issue. I just purchased a M6 laser light combo to mount on my HD gun. I am using a SA XD40 loaded with 11 rounds of HPs. I keep the light mounted on my gun for any bump in the night situations. IMO this combination is my best bet for home defense.

I think we can all be honest here and admit that if you are shining your light on an armed intruder he is going to have a better idea where you are. The point I would like to argue is that the probabilities of that armed intruder being able to hit you because of your weapon mounted light are very slim. The chances of you getting shot at in your own home are so minimal it is hard to even gauge. I think that in the case of an intruder in your home he is most likely going to be fleeing not sticking around to see if he can get a shot at whoever is behind the light. The majority of people that use WMLs are LEO or Military. I have never read of a specific incident that went bad because someone had a WML. Because of Murphy's Law I am sure there is a good guy somewhere that got hit because of his WML, but the chance of you being the next get to hit are too small to measure.


I guess my point is the good outweighs the bad in this situation. Being able to shoot from a good sturdy weaver stance is more important to me then worrying about getting shot behind my light.

 

[Jeff White]

Higgins,
I didn't put any words in your mouth. In your first post you said this:

I contend that a bright light on the end of a pistol merely gives an intruder/perp who may be armed a beacon to shoot at. I contend that the first instinct of an armed intruder who is willing to fire his weapon, when lit up with a bright light pointed in his direction will be to aim/fire at the light. If that light happens to be on the end of your pistol, you're essentially guiding the intruder/perp where to shoot.

I took this to mean that you were against the idea of a weapons mounted light. The rest of the post said this:

I know that in a home-defense situation, a homeowner has a duty to identify a target before firing, hence the need/desire for a pistol mounted light. And, yes, I realize a pistol mounted light frees up a hand that would otherwise be needed to handle a flashlight and now can be used to control the pistol. Despite the benefits, a pistol mounted light make its user a better target. Which I don't want to be for the sake of convenience. It's the same reason you don't walk patrol along a ridgeline or stand in an open doorway being lit from behind or be the third person to light a cigarette on a single match. It makes you a better target.

Someone back me up here.

I understood your post to mean that you were looking for other people to give you support in this position. All I did was present you with the other side of the coin.

The important thing here is to have a light and know how to use it. I said that in my first post in this thread. When it comes to these types of tactics, techniques and proceedures there aren't really too many right or wrong ways to do things. You're right if you have the foresight to have a good light, either handheld or weapons mounted. Your right if you train to employ it. You're wrong if you don't have a light and know how to use it. The guy on the other side of the counter at the gunshop probably isn't the person to be taking advice on an issue like this from. After all he has a vested interest here, in selling you a light.

There are disadvantages to weapons mounted lights. You do have to point the weapon at someone you might not have to shoot. But then you don't know that until you've ID'd the threat. I am aware of at least one incident during a SWAT operation where a suspect was accidentally shot because the officer was using a weapons mounted light to illuminate the suspect and had an ND. I think there was a thread on it at TFL. You have to remember that you don't have just a flashlight, you have a weapon. Every police department I know of that authorizes patrol officers to use weapons mounted lights has policy in place that forbids them to be used as flashlights. I'm aware of one dept that even issues a seperate SureFire light and provides new DL123 batteries every month so an officer has no excuse for using his weapon as a flashlight.

The key thing is to have a good light and to know how to use it. If you're not comfortable with a weapons mounted light, don't let anyone tell you you're wrong. Especially the guy at the gunshop.

Jeff

 

[Blackhawk 6]

Being able to shoot from a good sturdy weaver stance is more important to me then worrying about getting shot behind my light.

As it should be.

 

[another okie]

There is no drawback whatsoever to having a light on your weapon.
There are occasional drawbacks, in some situations, to using it.
Don't use it if the drawbacks, in those situations, exceed the benefits.
That doesn't mean you should promptly remove all weapons-mounted lights.

In other words, the arguments against the lights assume that they are always on or always used. They are an option. It is possible to have a light on your gun and not use it.

 

[Higgins]

I appreciate your points, J. White. Nonetheless, what you took me to mean and what I wrote are not the same thing. Just to reiterate, no where did I write that anyone was wrong or stupid for using pistol lights. I did not write that because it is not what I think, nor would I say such a thing about anyone just because my view on such a subjective matter differs. Perhaps the error was mine in poorly making my point in my first post or being a bit too loose with my language. No harm meant, and no harm done.

Now, however, lets put this dead horse to rest and stop beating on it. I was of a certain view and asked for others' opinions, and you all provided quality responses. I can see that the weight of opinion is contrary to my thinking. So, perhaps I am misguided, as Blackhawk suggests. As I said, it wouldn't be the first time, and the first step to correction is recongnizing the error of one's ways. Maybe I'll even run out and buy the latest Sig 226R and a light and sign up for a low-light class as tommy trauma suggested. In any case, this was educational.

 

[Stingray]

OK, after reading this post I got curious, and as curiosity gets the best of me I decided to go to the range and test the theory.

Quite simply I kept the down range lights out, had my friend mount a light on the target and he sent it down 25 feet. I kept my head down with my eyes closed, then looked up and fired at the light. I missed completely, realized I am unsafe, and put the gun down safe while waiting for my vision to clear. Those lights are BRIGHT!!!! I could not find the target, and was so stunned by the light that I had difficulty even knowing if I was firing straight.

Here is what I learned, a big ol bright light in the eyes do not give you something to shoot at, all you see is light, not a specific point of light.

The other thought I have on it is that if you are shooting without a light, at shadows...how can you tell if you hit the guy? Maybe he just dropped to the floor when you fired and he is now waiting for you to move or make a sound so he can fire back? Maybe you just wounded him and he is laying there getting ready to spray a bunch o' bullets in your direction.

I want to see what I am shooting at, I want to know if I hit it, and I want to make sure the BG is dead when I am done.

 

[BluesBear]

I think I was misunderstood. I didn't try to put word in anyone mouth. What I said was, "You do it your way and I'll do it mine. But don't try to tell me that my way is either wrong or stupid." My intent was for no one to tell anyone else their way was wrong or stupid.

As for me I do it differently that anyone else here has advocated. While I think that weapons monuted lights have a purpose, you will NOT find one on my handguns, EVER!

Having had to clear a house. And having actually found an intruder I am glad I didn't have a light on my weapon. I use a good combat light in my off hand. Let me tell you why.
What makes you think that an intruder will be operating alone? If you do come across an intruder and you "light him up" the rest of your house is in still in the dark. If your only light is on your handgun then if you sweep the room looking for anything else you no longer have him covered.
I prefer to keep my muzzle trained on the known threat and use my light and preipheral vison to scan for any other threat. I think that this is where a laser is an advantage. You can keep the laser trained on the known threat, and the threat will know he is covered. If you have the intruder on the floor waiting for the local constabulary to arrive you need to keep them covered. You might need the light to see what's what elsewhere in the room.

All of this "don't point your gun at anything you don't intend to destroy" is all fine and good 99% of the time. But there are times when it just can't be helped. Deal with it. We're not talking about checking out the new super-dooper poly blaster at the local gun shop.
When clearing a house you point your weapon where you are looking. You do this because you need to be able to engage any threat immediately. This, friends and neignbors is where miliseconds really DO matter. You sweep the room with your weqpon because you are WILLING to destroy anything that may try to destroy you. If the person lurking in the shadows of the living room turns out to be one of your children trying to smuggle your latest copy of Shotgun News into their room for a little late night drooling then you disengage and point the weapon somewhere else! IMMEDIATELY. (Your family should know better than to pad around the house in the dark anyway.)
But if that lurker turns out to be a local druggie looking to steal your daughter and rape your baseball card collection then you need to have control of the situation. Right there and then!

Now those of you who use a shotgun for home defense don't have an extra hand for an off weapon light. Y'all will have to figure out what's right for you.

The bottom line is that we all need to figure out what is right for our needs. There is no on cure fits all. Find out what suits you and learn it. Practice it. Live it.

 

[Rob62]

Put me down on the side of lights on guns are good. I believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Everything else has been pretty much said above.

Rob

 

[BWC]

There have been times at night when I have needed a light (and a gun too), and couldn't find the "bedside flashlight" (someone moved it, I used it some other time, etc....). But since my weapon is secured, I always know where it is. Having the light attached to it just simplifies things......

 

[SapperLeader]

I love weapon mounted lights on long guns, as Im not coordianted enough to manipulate a unatached light. I like the idea of a handgun mounted light particulary for a bedside gun. A handgun with nightsights and a flashlight attached, very well might be the perfect grab and go tool for when Im asleep in bed with the shotgun over in the closet. When I say perfect, I mean for me, not everyone . For ccw, I definitly prefer a seperate light to my handgun for various reasons. So while i think it can be debated on the location of the light, having a light is a must for me, as I never intend to be aiming at someone I know.

 

[zaijian]

This is an interesting issue. I just purchased a M6 laser light combo to mount on my HD gun. I am using a SA XD40 loaded with 11 rounds of HPs. I keep the light mounted on my gun for any bump in the night situations. IMO this combination is my best bet for home defense.

Dang Sturmruger, did you break into my house and steal my gun bag??
I've also got an XD40 Tactical w/ M6.

Here's an interesting exercise I did to test the viability of the WML - I had my roommate start off on one end of the house, and me in the other. Lights at normal sleeping levels - that is, maybe a single hall light on. I had him use my XD40 (unloaded, of course) with the M6 on it. As soon as he spotted me, I whipped out my index and thumb in the classic pseudo gun shape (I only own one gun ) and aimed at where I thought he was.

The results were pretty interesting. I was pretty blinded and disoriented from that light (It's freaking bright) and my initial point of aim was several feet away from where he actually was. With a light that bright, it's really hard to tell where exactly it's coming from - all you can tell at that point is a general direction. Meanwhile, he had me firmly in his sights.

Distance plays a pretty great role in this scenario, tho - this was from about 15-20 feet away, and I couldn't see squat. I imagine that if the distances were more like 50+ feet away, the effect of the light would not be so intense, and allow the BG to make a more accurate shot.

Another thing to consider is if the BG has any warning at all - if it's a burglary-type mission, they're probably hoping for no confrontations at all, which means shining a light on them would cause them a slight heart attack, giving the defender a few extra seconds to deal with the issue. But, seeing as how IANA burglar, this is all conjecture on my part

 

[Oboeman]

While there has been some pretty interesting discussion here, apparently this question has plagued law enforcement as well. A recent gun mag reported on a test done by a police department using no light, with the gun mounted light constantly on, and using a technique whereby persons with M6-type lights flashed the high intensity light on and off while moving. I cannot recall all of the parameters of the test (which was conducted in the basement of a church with lots of furniture, etc.), but the technique using flashes of light at the subject while continuing to move was reported by far the most effective technique for both blinding the other side, and avoiding the aim of the "bad guys". No light came in third as I recall. Every circumstance is different, so this may not work in some situations.

 

[john l]

If you have a weapon mounted light, and you are in your own home, then you don't necessarily have to use your light. But it is there if you need it.
As far as the barrel pointing the same way as the flashlight, keep your finger off the trigger. M3s are nice because you can activate the momentary switch with your trigger finger. If it's there, it can't be on the trigger, too.
Then there is the arguement that a separate flashlight is better because it is not aiming the same place as your weapon. Hmmm. Sounds like hooey to me. If you got up at 3 am to noises that justify you getting your gun and light, I doubt you would keep your pistol pointing downward while your flashlight is pointing straight ahead. Possible, but unlikely.
In the daytime, flash a Surefire in your eyes, I guarantee that you won't be reading fine print for a while, so I agree with the thoughts about the flashlight itself being a weapon.
A gunfight is a crapshoot anyway, so it is up to us to pick the weapon system that will give us an advantage. Night goggles anyone?
Lastly, those of you who have actually shot at night/lowlight know that if you are holding a flashlight in one hand and shooting a pistol in the other, it is really just a strong-hand excercise, and then when you need your free hand to do something else, guess what? your other hand is full. What do you do, put it down? Yeah, you can, but why have one then?
The most advanced method is the weapon mounted light, use it when needed, keep your finger off the trigger, and you can shoot two handed when and if you need to.
john l.

 

[XavierBreath]

I have an acquaintance who shot and killed his teenage daughter in his own dark living room a few years back. He shot her once through the chest with a .357 magnum, and she died in his arms before EMS could arrive. You can say he was stupid for shooting at a target in the dark. He would agree with you. You could say his daughter was stupid for entering his house without turning on the lights. If she could, she would probably agree.

No matter what spin you put on the shooting, he shot before he had identified his target. His aim was excellent. His S&W revolver worked as advertised. The one non debatable fact is the apple of his eye is dead by his own hand, and he will never be the same.

I tell of this not to belittle this man, but to illustrate why I have a light on both my house pistol and my home defense shotgun. Rule #2 is to never point your weapon at something you do not wish to destroy. How can you possibly know if you want to destroy it or not if it is in the dark? A person always has the option of lying in wait and ambushing a threat instead of doing a house clearing. A person also has the option of using a light or not using a light if he has one. If you do not have a light, you too, may end up shooting in the dark.

Imagine burying your child because you made a single mistake when you were scared out of your wits. My advice is to buy a light. Learn to use it effectively. Know the areas of your home where you can observe and set up an ambush. Know how to clear your house safely and effectively if necessary. Most of all, though, continue to follow the four rules, even in a home defense situation. Your children's lives may depend on it.

 

[dustind]

What about just turning the house lights on? I guess this would work better if you could turn the lights by the intruder on, but leave the ones by yourself off. You could also have a light located so that it shines in the other person's eyes, and not yours.

 

[doofus]

Aside from the primary benefit of helping to identify your target, tac-lights provide a tactical advantage, in that they ruin the night vision of your attacker in low-light situations. Looking into a (presumably) bright light actually helps to conceal your body.

This leaves only the light itself to aim at, which of course, the attacker has to look directly into in order to aim at it. All-in-all, if you're talking about close proximity, your chances of being hit aren't significantly increased.