Loading .38 Colt Short for modern gun. Questions:

[Shivahasagun]

I have new Starline .38 Colt Short cases to fire from my Colt King Cobra .357 magnum 3-inch barrel.

I'm only looking for a good practice / plinking round in the 650-725 fps range. Prefer heavier weight to match the POI I'm used to. (fixed sights. Been using 158 gr bullets in .357 and .38)

I put together a dummy to start my dies and the 158 gr LFN .358 bullets I have seated to 1.06 in. OAL. A bit short. (But chamber fine!) Also, these bullets have a BHN of 18. Too hard for a light load to expand them properly in the bore I think.

Options:

1. I can choose not seat these bullets so deep so pressures would come down. (seat to say, 1.2 in.)

2. I can forget using these bullets and find softer, 125 gr, 135, or 145 gr bullets.

Powders I have that would work:

CFE Pistol, 700x, Titegroup.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Been doing more research.

I think loading these 158 gr bullets out to 1.15-1.20 and 2.5 grs of Titegroup would be a safe place to start.

While I found others using Titegroup, Red dot, and slower powders, I didn't see anyone try CFEP, which I think would be a good match.

Again, I'm just going for accuracy and the right POI with 650-725 fps average.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I have new Starline .38 Colt Short cases to fire from my Colt King Cobra .357 magnum 3-inch barrel.

I'm only looking for a good practice / plinking round in the 650-725 fps range. Prefer heavier weight to match the POI I'm used to. (fixed sights. Been using 158 gr bullets in .357 and .38)

I put together a dummy to start my dies and the 158 gr LFN .358 bullets I have seated to 1.06 in. OAL. A bit short. (But chamber fine!) Also, these bullets have a BHN of 18. Too hard for a light load to expand them properly in the bore I think.

Options:

1. I can choose not seat these bullets so deep so pressures would come down. (seat to say, 1.2 in.)

2. I can forget using these bullets and find softer, 125 gr, 135, or 145 gr bullets.

Powders I have that would work:

CFE Pistol, 700x, Titegroup.

Look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 (http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Man...et Handbook - 3rd Edition - 1980 - Reduce.pdf), and use 158 gr load data for .38 S&W. The case capacities are almost identical, and the pressure for .38 S&W maxes at about 15,000 PSI, so you should be good to go in a .357 Mag revolver. It has data for 700x, and you can probably use Bullseye data for Tightgroup loads. The pressure may be a little more, but definitely not above 357 Mag levels.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 (http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet Casting/Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - 3rd Edition - 1980 - Reduce.pdf), and use 158 gr load data for .38 S&W. The case capacities are almost identical, and the pressure for .38 S&W maxes at about 15,000 PSI, so you should be good to go in a .357 Mag revolver. It has data for 700x, and you can probably use Bullseye data for Tightgroup loads. The pressure may be a little more, but definitely not above 357 Mag levels.

The link didn't work, but I was able to find that manual. (Mine didn't list 158 gr in .38 s&w)

It listed 700x 2.1- 2.6 oal 1.15.
And yes, Bullseye 1.8 - 2.6.

Thanks!

I won't seat the bullets I have at the 1.06 cannelure but just to 1.15.

I can load some up safely now and see what they'll do accuracy/velocity.

Then I'll get some softer and perhaps slightly lighter bullets for these short cases.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

You can try http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/. There are some other manuals there too.

 

[mcb]

Go over to Brian Enos' forum and ask in the Revolver sub forum. Lots of guys over there loading 38 Short Colt for modern revolvers.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Alright.

I found I can seat my 158 bullets down to 1.15 in OAL and still have plenty of case on the bullet. (.259 in)

Now I can use that .38 S&W 158 gr start data and go from there.

Thanks, guys.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Anyone tried CFE-P in .38 Colt Short or .38 S&W?

Should work with the heavier bullets.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Anyone tried CFE-P in .38 Colt Short or .38 S&W?

Should work with the heavier bullets.

Below is a possible path, but proceed with caution, and at your own risk.

I’m not advocating this, and you should use caution with small cases, but 38 short colt cases and 9mm cases are nearly identical in size as well; 9mm being just a fuzz smaller. If you can find CFE-P data for a 9mm bullet at close to 38 Special pressure, you can probably adapt it to 38 short colt cases. You probably won’t find 158 gr data, but 125 gr jacketed (cast would be better) would be doable since those bullet weights are common to both cartridges.

Again, case volume is limited in the small case, and don’t assume a direct 1 to 1 cross over in pressures, although they should be close if you seat the bullets at the same depths. A quick look at Hodgdon shows minimum 9mm CFE-P charges creating about 27,000 psi, so in no uncertain terms, don’t monkey around at charges higher than those unless you back it up with Quickload or something similar, and even then you’re getting close to what I’d feel uncomfortable with. Hornady minimums are a little lower, and I’d feel more comfortable starting there, or even a little lower.

I’d try my best to stay close to .38 Special +P pressures, even though 357 magnum is capable of much higher, just for safety’s sake.

Stay safe, and continue to check other sources for the data you’re seeking. I don’t want to be the cause of an unfortunate accident.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Thanks for that.

Hm. Might be a bit too much guess work and chance for me. I think I should let someone with more experience try this one.

CFEP seems to be erratic at low-medium pressure then do great closer to its max. Over max could be bad so that's a rather small window to play in. (In this case)

I'll keep an eye out for other people's experiences with .38 Colt Short and CFEP.

 

[Shivahasagun]

My first Shorts testing.

Oal 1.15. 158 gr flat nose. From my 3 inch Colt. Lots of misreads but I got a few.

2.5 gr Titegroup 669 687 649 658 667 574.

They sounded pretty weak.

2.7 gr Titegroup 718 728 634 688 687 672. Didnt sound so weak.

2.9 gr Titegroup 727 714 663 648 714 689. These actually started to feel like a typical. 38 spl.

No sticky brass with any of these. Didn't have enough to thoroughly test accuracy. Next time.

I'm thinking I'll go with 2.8 gr for the next batch.

 

[Jim Watson]

Why?
I understand the ICORE - USPSA application but what's the point in a regular gun?

Do be careful, another poster is getting sticky extraction when loading above 9mm.

 

[AzShooter1]

3.2 grains of Vhitivori N320 and a 158 grain LRN works great and gives you manageable recoil and great accuracy.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Why?
I understand the ICORE - USPSA application but what's the point in a regular gun?

Do be careful, another poster is getting sticky extraction when loading above 9mm.

Small casings take up less space, use less powder, extra easily with a short ejector rod.

Also, when they end up in the same dump bucket at the range it's very to separate them from .38 special cases (which I'm loading hotter loads with). Much easier than separating .38 spl's among .357 cases.

.38 Spl is easier / faster to load into the cylinder using speed loaders. .38 Short faster still although some loaders have issues with them.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I am going to switch to 140-145 gr bullets in .38 but just wanted to add:

I loaded another batch of 158 gr #1 Ranger bullets (Missouri BC) with good results from the 3 inch Colt .357.

90 degree + temp. 2.7 grs of Titegroup averaged 666 fps. ES 57, SD 16. Plenty accurate. Easy extraction. Very low recoil.