Loading .38 spl to near .357 loads
- Thread starter Racinbob
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... look at # 18 again. I ask again... what is the purpose of doing this? If the guy needs .357 brass, I have plenty I will send along. Otherwise this is an accident waiting to happen.
Excuse me... IMHO ...jjohnson
Member
"Grey Area"
We haven't seen the actual load data.
Yes, you can find loading data for 38 Special +P. And you can find +P rated brass. So... is the load run up to spec for +P loads?
I know that some brass manufacturers make all their .38 brass to +P spec and mark some of them without the "+P" marking to sell to the .38 Special market and some of them WITH the "+P" mark so reloaders can keep them separate. Same brass, different headstamp.
Maybe the guy is loading to +P spec with proper brass and saying "It's close to .357."
We don't know
either way.
So.... we STILL wind up with the caution - to keep your loads within the bounds of the published data.
We haven't seen the actual load data.
Yes, you can find loading data for 38 Special +P. And you can find +P rated brass. So... is the load run up to spec for +P loads?
I know that some brass manufacturers make all their .38 brass to +P spec and mark some of them without the "+P" marking to sell to the .38 Special market and some of them WITH the "+P" mark so reloaders can keep them separate. Same brass, different headstamp.
Maybe the guy is loading to +P spec with proper brass and saying "It's close to .357."
We don't know
either way.So.... we STILL wind up with the caution - to keep your loads within the bounds of the published data.
The Bushmaster
Member
JJ...Not true...Manufacturers use the same brass for standard .38 special loads and +P loads. They only mark the +P loadings so that those that buy factory ammunition know that they have +P. Other then that all (well almost all) .38 Special brass is the same...
.357 magnum brass is a bit heavier. Especially in the head and web.
.357 magnum brass is a bit heavier. Especially in the head and web.
We have been down this run a few times. 99% of .38 +P is the same as standard. .357 cases are thicker than .38. I like to load +P loads in +P brass to help identify them, not because the brass is any different. I should have cut a regular .38 brass for the pic as well.
Old Pic from another thread.
Old Pic from another thread.
The brass case is only a GASKET, used to seal the firing chamber against the high-pressure gases. The STRENGTH lies in the material and design of the firearm itself. Rimfires are about the only current ammunition where CASE strength is critical to the safe operation of the firearm.
This subject came up on the Cast Boolit site some time back, and at that time I shortened .357 cases of several makes to .38 Special length. Guess what? The shortened .357 brass was almost precisely the same weight as .38 brass from the same maker. This means that there is no practical difference in the amount of actual metal in the .357 cases, as compared to .38 brass of the same headstamp.
Those old Lyman handbooks were NOT giving data for using .38 brass in .357 guns. They were specifically providing heavy .38 loads for use in .38 Special revolvers. I will 'fess up now, and tell y'all that I, myself, personally (not the guy down the street, or a friend of my brother-in-law) used MANY hundreds of "Skeeter" loads (155-grain 358156/ SPECIFIC POWDER LOAD REMOVED BY STAFF ) in a K-frame .38 Special without harm to myself or the gun. Accuracy was superb, extraction was easy, and the gun was still in excellent working order when I sold it.
Would I do that today? No, because I have a goodly number of .357 revolvers, and a limited number of .38 Specials which includes the J-frame 642. I wouldn't want one of the Skeeter loads to find its way into the little gun. However, this discontinuance of heavy-loaded .38s occurred rather recently, when the 642 moved in with us maybe five years ago. It ended about thirty years of successful use of .38 brass in heavy loads, and I'm now using .357 guns for .357 jobs, with .357 brass.
That 358156, incidentally, has two crimp grooves. Used in .357 brass, it's crimped in the front groove. In .38 brass, we have the option of using the rear groove for more case capacity with heavy loads or for use in longer .357 chambers. The front groove can also be used with .38 cases for altering burning characteristics, or normal use in .38 chambers. The bullet is a gas-check design, but I find it works well in many loads without the gas-check attached.
The .38/.357 guns have given me a lot of fun over the years. If faced with that perennial gun-forum question, "If you could only have ONE....", my choice might well fall on the .357.
This subject came up on the Cast Boolit site some time back, and at that time I shortened .357 cases of several makes to .38 Special length. Guess what? The shortened .357 brass was almost precisely the same weight as .38 brass from the same maker. This means that there is no practical difference in the amount of actual metal in the .357 cases, as compared to .38 brass of the same headstamp.
Those old Lyman handbooks were NOT giving data for using .38 brass in .357 guns. They were specifically providing heavy .38 loads for use in .38 Special revolvers. I will 'fess up now, and tell y'all that I, myself, personally (not the guy down the street, or a friend of my brother-in-law) used MANY hundreds of "Skeeter" loads (155-grain 358156/ SPECIFIC POWDER LOAD REMOVED BY STAFF ) in a K-frame .38 Special without harm to myself or the gun. Accuracy was superb, extraction was easy, and the gun was still in excellent working order when I sold it.
Would I do that today? No, because I have a goodly number of .357 revolvers, and a limited number of .38 Specials which includes the J-frame 642. I wouldn't want one of the Skeeter loads to find its way into the little gun. However, this discontinuance of heavy-loaded .38s occurred rather recently, when the 642 moved in with us maybe five years ago. It ended about thirty years of successful use of .38 brass in heavy loads, and I'm now using .357 guns for .357 jobs, with .357 brass.
That 358156, incidentally, has two crimp grooves. Used in .357 brass, it's crimped in the front groove. In .38 brass, we have the option of using the rear groove for more case capacity with heavy loads or for use in longer .357 chambers. The front groove can also be used with .38 cases for altering burning characteristics, or normal use in .38 chambers. The bullet is a gas-check design, but I find it works well in many loads without the gas-check attached.
The .38/.357 guns have given me a lot of fun over the years. If faced with that perennial gun-forum question, "If you could only have ONE....", my choice might well fall on the .357.
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Already said that in my first post:
".38 Special High Velocity (Heavy Frame Guns Only)" which refers to the 38/44 revolver."
Perhaps they now make .38 Special and .357 brass with the same web thickness for whatever reason? I seem to remember an article in Handloader Digest or some sort of digest from many years ago where they had an article about Skelton, his guns, loads, and a cross section cut-away of 38 vs .357 mag brass demonstrating the thicker web of .357 at the time.
Wish I still had that book, and perhaps someone here can confirm/deny what I say. I remember it had a big article about the Freedom Arms .454 Casull if that helps.
Wow, I never expected this kind of response. JJ, he's loading "right at" .357 loads per his words. I'll ask him the actual charge but I'll bet he's doing it half *!% knowing him. Thanks for the pic Walkalong. I've saved it and also plan on geting out the hacksaw tomorrow. Personally, if he wants to be this stupid, let him. But what about the person standing next to him? Thanks to everyone for all the great input.
hossfly
Member
Ditto with the guys saying DON'T DO IT. It's an accident waiting to happen.
ReloaderFred
Member
A lot of people get all hung up on the weight of certain brass, and that's fine, as far as it goes. What really matters is where that weight is. Is it in the base, web or walls? If it's in the case walls of one piece of brass, then two pieces of brass weighing the same may have different thicknesses in the walls, base or web.
I don't get excited when someone says two pieces of brass weighed the same. I do take note when someone has actually measured the thickness of the brass like Walkalong did in his post. That shows where the real difference is, unlike simple weighing.
It's still a bad idea to load .357 Magnum loads in .38 cases. I've seen too many blown up guns already(not my own), and don't need to see anymore.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I don't get excited when someone says two pieces of brass weighed the same. I do take note when someone has actually measured the thickness of the brass like Walkalong did in his post. That shows where the real difference is, unlike simple weighing.
It's still a bad idea to load .357 Magnum loads in .38 cases. I've seen too many blown up guns already(not my own), and don't need to see anymore.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
That's a good place to end this one.
Fred summed it up well. No use hashing it over yet again.
Closed.
Johnny Guest
THR Staff
Fred summed it up well. No use hashing it over yet again.
Closed.
Johnny Guest
THR Staff
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