Logistics of Out-Of-State Gun Training/Competition

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Cosmoline

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I'm hoping to do some "gun vacations" this decade, probably at least one trip to Friendship and one to Thunder Ranch. I know a lot of folks travel long distances to attend these kinds of courses and competitions, but I'm wondering how on Earth they manage the logistics. The rifle For a week at a major training facility the ammo requirements alone run up to thousands of rounds of rifle and handgun ammo.

The rifle and handgun are transportable by air, but what about the ammo and sundry extra stuff? What's the standard practice folks use to get it all there?
 
the allowance for ammo on the plane is 11 pounds, IIRC.

When I go to Gunsite, I buy their ammo package. Also, most schools will allow you to ship ammo directly to them, or will receive orders from ammo distributors.
 
the allowance for ammo on the plane is 11 pounds, IIRC.
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The ammo allowance actually varies depending on which airline you fly - you will need to check with them for the actual limit. The TSA itself, does not have a poundage limit. While not specifically noted, bulk or loose packed ammo will most likely be rejected.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

If you choose to pack your ammo in your bags, the amount of lead involved will prevent the x-ray machines from seeing what they need to see and most likely, your bag will be opened for inspection. (One or two boxes of ammo shouldn't be a problem.) This is not too big a deal if the scanning takes place in a location where you are also present but can still be a nightmare depending on the competence of the TSA personnel involved (ask me how I know that...).

For handguns, it is probably best to place them in a small locked hard sided handgun case inside of a larger piece of luggage. This is actually necessary if you use soft sided luggage.

Whichever airline you fly, have a copy of their firearms / ammo regs as well as the TSA regs IN YOUR POCKET and readily available as not all airline or TSA personnel are actually familiar with their regs (does that surprise anyone). Most of the time, things go very smoothly, but you will want to be prepared for those few occasions when it doesn't.
 
I had no idea TR was so restrictive! Not just lead free but lead free frangible. The costs would be astronomical, so they're off my list.
 
I had no idea TR was so restrictive! Not just lead free but lead free frangible
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it saves them a fortune in not having to clean it out and in not having to meet "clean water" concerns...that's one of his major reasons for moving to OR, to save on overhead expenses

when i used to travel to teach at classes, i'd just buy ammo when i arrived. when i travel to classes, i have my gear (other than guns) and ammo ahead to the range, the class host or myself at my hotel
 
I don't remember exactly where, but I found lead-free frangible on once-fired brass for something like 17 bucks per box of 50 for 9mm last time I was mulling over a trip west to TR. I remember thinking that it wasn't enough more than the stuff I usually shoot to keep me away from Oregon, assuming that everything else lined up. I'd at least check into their supplier's affiliate student pricing for your caliber of choice before crossing them off, FWIW.
 
My first question is why anyone feels it necessary to travel extended distances to a big name school or demand that their facility of choice have a high round count? There are a number of high quality instructors and training centers that have significantly reduced the number or rounds fired per day. The benefit is that students are now actually being taught material, conducting valuable dry-fire practice, being watched closely, and being paid more attention to on the rounds they actually fire.

Very little is gained simply from shooting thousands of rounds on repetitous drills that may be instilling bad habits. You can do that on your home range. Find a school that presents a solid combination of classroom, dry-fire, instructor supervision, and live-fire. That is, unless you simply feel that shooting a lot of rounds on the range of a big name school equates to quality training.

Sorry, not trying to hi-jack the thread. Read what I am saying carefully and it really does come down to logistics. Instead of spending a fortune on travel, a big name school, hotels, and an ungodly amount of ammo, put your resources to better use by finding a great instructor who may not be as well known but presents solid material in an economical manner.

I am not disparaging some of the big name schools. Some are very good at what they do. I simply understand that economics must play a part in the decision making process but that doesn't mean that quality of instruction must be sacrificed.
 
I'd look into shipping ammo directly if at all possible as that seems to be the cheaper / convenient route.


My first question is why anyone feels it necessary to travel extended distances to a big name school or demand that their facility of choice have a high round count?
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Some of the "big name" schools have excellent facilities that can't be found outside of military / LEO circles, so I can see the appeal. I would assume that a round count would reflect a quality curriculum, and that time spent shooting would be quality time, as opposed to mindless trigger pulling. However, we know what happens when we "assume"...

Another appealing aspect of the "big name" schools could be the size of the class, as some folks enjoy the camaraderie shared between both large and small groups during training.

To each their own.
 
My first question is why anyone feels it necessary to travel extended distances to a big name school or demand that their facility of choice have a high round count?
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Because there are no training companies nearby. The ones that will travel will only do so if you pamper them like royalty. The high round count is to build muscle memory.

There are a number of high quality instructors and training centers that have significantly reduced the number or rounds fired per day. The benefit is that students are now actually being taught material, conducting valuable dry-fire practice, being watched closely, and being paid more attention to on the rounds they actually fire.
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Right and the drawback to that is they spend less time shooting, which is one of the major elements of the course, thus reducing skill building exercises.


Very little is gained simply from shooting thousands of rounds on repetitous drills that may be instilling bad habits.
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Because we know the instructors aren't right there to help you correct form.:rolleyes:

Find a school that presents a solid combination of classroom, dry-fire, instructor supervision, and live-fire. That is, unless you simply feel that shooting a lot of rounds on the range of a big name school equates to quality training.
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Seriously?

Sorry, not trying to hi-jack the thread. Read what I am saying carefully and it really does come down to logistics. Instead of spending a fortune on travel, a big name school, hotels, and an ungodly amount of ammo, put your resources to better use by finding a great instructor who may not be as well known but presents solid material in an economical manner.
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I would rather go with experience, thanks.

I am not disparaging some of the big name schools. Some are very good at what they do. I simply understand that economics must play a part in the decision making process but that doesn't mean that quality of instruction must be sacrificed.
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Who said quality of instruction was sacrificed? We get you're trying to promote your business. Probably not best to criticize your competition on the open forum, especially when you're up against one of the most respected facilities in the country. ;)
 
RhinoDefense,

Exactly who is trying to promote their business? Didn't I suggest you NOT travel long distances for training? That would seem to indicate that I am NOT asking people to do so for me either. While I like to give advice where I can, have you ever seen me promote one of my courses on THR or do you just not like bylines that tell a little something about the author?

Perhaps you missed the part where I said I was not disparaging some of the big name schools. Maybe you missed the part where I said there are many quality instructors. I was very clear in that. I have been to some of the big schools, guest taught at some, and turned down full time positions at some. I don't have any problem with them. I just have a life that doesn't allow for it to be my full time career. I will tell you that some of the most experienced and best instructors are not found at such locations.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Resources can be put to very good use without the high cost of travel, big names, hotels, and high round counts.

BigRhino, not sure why you like to be condescending to someone who is giving sound advice, but I'll take it with a grain of salt that it is likely just a defect in your personality.

Please excuse me if I was trying to encourage others to seek quality instruction without taking out a second mortgage. I don't see that as a promotion of my business, which by the way is a very small and unnecessary source of my income. I see it as sound advice in the promotion of seeking out quality instruction nearby one's home from a myriad of quality instructors.
 
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No axe to grind either way; I've benefitted from both world-famous instructors, and ones close to home that most have not heard of.

I will say one thing about this whole high round count thing though, if we are still talking about a place like Thunder Ranch: a requirement of "a nominal 800 rounds" doesn't seem all that outrageous weighed against a 3-day class. A lot of one-day upper level "local hero" pistol classes (including, Osage, yes?) will require between 250 (less than TR, averaged) and 400 rounds (definitely more, averaged per class hour) for an 8-hour class, so I'd say that TR is actually middle of the road for lead going downrange (allowing for the fact that it's not really lead up there in the hill country, anyway, of course).

FWIW.
 
Sidheshooter,

That is exactly right. In no way am I trying to disparage the way that anyone runs a course, nor the round count in and of itself. After all, customers are there to shoot.

What I am trying to point out, among other things, is that the round count is not indicative of the quality of a course.

Here's the problem I see, and I will attribute it as much to the shooter as I do to the facility. The customer wants to shoot, and sometimes they measure the worth of a course in how much time they spend on the actual firing line and not necessarily on the totality of the curriculum. Obviously shooting is what they are there for and takes up a large block of time but you would be remiss to judge a course on that alone.

Based on the fact that much of the learning occurs in the classroom the curriculum should be fully evaluated. Further, before students make their way out to the range it is often a good idea to perform drills slowly, performing dry-fire, etc. Finally, when you get out to the range it is not how much you shoot but the quality of those shots.

I have attended way too many courses where the instructor to student ratio was way too high and range commands to fire were coming way too fast and furious. It is easy for a student in those types of courses to be performing incorrectly, yet go unnoticed. Add the high round count in and they often repeat, and put into muscle memory, incorrect techniques.

Only because it was brought up will I explain why some of my courses have a higher round count. I try to keep my number of students per class to a bare minimum (often 2-4 students). In that regard I have much more personal time with them and can keep things moving along from set to set, accomplishing more in a day than I could do in three with a large class. As the class size grows the round count is reduced (and often time extended) because I only have half the class shoot at a time, while the others observe and critique other classmates (which can be very valuable by the way). As you can imagine, the outlines on my website are only indicative of the courses, and are highly customizable based on customer requirements. I would assert that to be another advantage of smaller schools.

Anyway, I'm not about telling somebody how to spend their hard earned money. People can fly across country if that is what makes them happy and I'm serious about that. But I am all for informing those who, through no fault of their own, have no idea how to weigh the advantages/disadvantages of one trainer over the next. Truly, most shooters looking for some additional training wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, LFI, or their local NRA instructor. Hopefully, my input as well as that of others will assist them in making the best decisions for themselves. I am after all in it because I care about people having the knowledge and abilities to properly arm themselves both mentally and physically. It sure isn't for the money 'cause I have been known to teach low budget departments for a friendly "thank you" and homemade chocolate chip cookies (no kidding).
 
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RhinoDefense said:
Because there are no training companies nearby. The ones that will travel will only do so if you pamper them like royalty.
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Nonsense.

Who? Which itinerant trainers specifically do you know who sets that forth?

I've personally been involved with organizing training at my club with no less than six different well-known intinerant training companies over the past decade, seeing more than a dozen individual trainers travel to our club from as far away as Washington state. None of them made those sorts of demands. All they expected was a range and classroom free from interruptions, and the freedom to run their class according to their cirriculum.


RhinoDefense said:
I would rather go with experience, thanks. . . .

Who said quality of instruction was sacrificed? We get you're trying to promote your business. Probably not best to criticize your competition on the open forum, especially when you're up against one of the most respected facilities in the country.
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I'd put John Farnam's experience and quality of instruction up against any of those in the resort-based training schools. I've never known John to run a resort-based school. As he'd tell you he's nearly as old as dirt. And he's been around for so long that I'd wager some of those instructors studied under him at one point in their career. Tom Givens is another instructor who takes his classes on the road, and I challenge you to find a better program as measured in the success of his students.

The quality of intinerant training is not diminished. The facility doesn't make the training good, it's the quality of the instructor and the strength of the cirriculum that matters.


jscott's going to be polite about it, but I won't - Frankly you don't know what you're speaking about and I don't like your attitude. So I'm going to address Cosmoline's questions.



Cosmo, I've been fortunate in that I didn't have to fly to take any of the training I wanted. Some have, and if you have someplace you can ship those things you're brining ahead of you, it makes the logistics much easier. If I had to fly, that's exactly what I'd do.

Unless you have a specific school you want to attend who doesn't travel, I'd look closely at what's near you. There might be a trainer who makes his way out near you, or a good school within driving distance.


This is another reason why I advocate people belong to a good gun club. Gun clubs are about a lot more than just someplace to shoot. It's nice to just go out in the back forty, or find some free place to go shooting. But circumstances like this are a good reason to hold a membership in a club. It's not cost effective to have a trainer come out just to teach you. But in a club, you have both the facilities and a better chance of getting enough buddies together to make it worthwhile.

Do you belong to a club now?
 
There are some fine instructors locally, but the market is small and there's a limit to what's offered beyond the basic CCW courses. What out of state "resort" type training facilities may offer is more extensive training at much more advanced facilities. Plus an opportunity to get out of this little enclave where I've been shooting for years and maybe learn some new things. But certainly before I go spending a bunch I'll tap out what's local.

And I say "may" because I really don't know. I just always hear about these big name programs and it might be interesting to see.
 
The ones that will travel will only do so if you pamper them like royalty.
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Pity you've had that experience, but none of the half a dozen different folks that have come to Knoxville over the past few years wanted us to "pamper them like royalty" nor did they permit it. About a 15 years ago one guys we brought in wanted to be put up in a "nice" hotel, wanted to be taken out and fawned over an wouldn't pick up the tab for anything. The rest of the trainers have stayed in a modest hotel they paid for or accepted someone's offer to stay with them locally. Most of them picked up the tab for the group dinner one night or the other and all of them bought a pitcher of beer when they came up in rotation, if not the first pitcher.

The greatest advantage to established fixed training facilities is that they can invest in infrastructure that makes training easier and more "realistic" where traveling trainers have to adapt the host facilities range to provide more realistic training. There's only so much 3-gun type props a trainer can practically haul around. Fixed facilities can and do provide excellent training. With an excellent trainer in a good facility you'll get great training, but the value is primarily in the quality of the trainer, their ability to adapt to conditions, their ability to communicate the material, their ability to diagnose and help trainees work through their particular training barriers (either speed bumps or brick walls) to learn the material being trained.
 
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The quality instructors I've seen in TX haven't been treated like royalty - unless eating BBQ in small towns and staying in the standard travel motels or range bunkhouse is where the king and queen stay. Givens, OPS, Insights, Werner. In Dallas, Mas stayed in the same motel as I did. Ate in the same coffee shop.

Polite Society digs were the standard Courtyard by Mariott.

NTI - well, I did like the caviar and Stoly buffet, Ken. Ha!

Glenn
 
Cosmo, that's certainly as good a reason as any.


But you do realize that most trainers will take their show on the road for enough students. It's usually somewhere between eight and a dozen. Larry Vickers, Tom Givens at Rangemaster, the crew from Insights Training in Washington state, John Farnam . . . the list goes on.


Do you belong to a club? Do you have facilities to host one? Friends who might be interested?

You might find it more cost effective to organize a class, and fly the instructor to you for the weekend. Most will offer a discount for the organizer. Pass that discount onto your friends. If you're committed to taking a class, there are creative ways to make it work for you.
 
Cosmo -

Regarding getting stuff there - I check the guns per airline/TSA regulation, then check my range bag with all the sundry 'stuff' inside. I've been fortunate enough to just buy my ammo when I arrive at my destination city. Pack a box of street ammo in the luggage, then hit the local walmart to stock up on range ammo for class.

I've taken a number of classes from travelling instructors and intend to visit one of the fixed-facility schools in the next couple years. I expect it to offer (i) an "immersion" quality that I've not yet experienced in the weekend classes I've taken, and (ii) a new (different) standard against which I can evaluate things.

There are some fine instructors locally, but the market is small and there's a limit to what's offered beyond the basic CCW courses.
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Are you aware that Bill Jeans typically has a couple AK classes on his schedule each year? I expect there are others that make it up there, but he's the first that came to mind:

http://www.morr-con.com
 
BullfrogKen, I've ran into several dozen traveling instructors that need to be pampered like royalty. Call them to schedule, give them the address, and list of hotels. Their response: Put me up in the most expensive hotel in your area and you pay the tab for the room, room service, and any calls made from the room.

You underestimate the experience of members here. I've been making weapons and making ammunition for several decades. I've been shooting just as long. I've taken many, many training classes ranging from handgun, rifle, carbine, shotgun, knife, hand to hand, and automatic weapons. Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
Well, we've give the list a set of quality instructors who will stay in the standard digs and eat regular food. That should solve the problem of royalty.
 
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