looking for a double barrel shotgun. coach gun

[boots]

i have been looking at some side by sides(coach guns), and have narrowed it down to a couple choices.

1. stoeger coach 12ga nickel finish
2. baikal
3. eea



i've searched throughout the posts looking for affordable sxs doubles, and the choices above seem to fit my criteria. from what i've read, i've been leaning towards the stoeger, but found the eea coach guns significantly cheaper. please pick for me. some people buy guns, then shoot them to see how they function, then put them away. not me. i buy a gun, then shoot it until my shoulder hurts, then clean it, and handle it non-stop for a couple days to familiarize myself with the gun, then shoot again, clean, handle,shoot,clnhndl,sht,cl,hl......... what i'm looking for is reliable dependability, and dependable durablity. again i ask, which one?

 

[boots]

is it possible

to shoot slugs out of the coach guns, and what choke should i buy(improved cylindert or modified?), main purpose would be up close home defense.

 

[Preacherman]

Boots, the coach guns often are plain cylinder bore, without choke options. Longer-barrelled SxS guns will usually have chokes. (Of course, you can have the barrels fitted with screw-in chokes quite easily.)

The EAA Baikal is a good gun, over-engineered to the point that it's almost indestructible. It badly needs the services of a good gunsmith to give an acceptable trigger pull, and the action is usually VERY stiff to open until it's broken in (again, a gunsmith can fix this). It's very popular on the Cowboy Action circuit, and there are plenty of gunsmiths who can do an action and trigger job on it. There are two models: one with internal firing pins, and one with external hammers. The early model with "external hammers" actually had dummy hammers: the firing pins were internal, and the hammers merely served to cock the action. The current model has actual hammers that fire the shells.

The Stoeger is a very good coach gun, albeit less "massively" constructed than the EAA. It, too, could use a gunsmith's attention to action and triggers. I liked mine, and found it lighter and easier to handle than the EAA.

A couple of things on both these models:

1. They have extractors, not ejectors (which are illegal in Cowboy Action shooting). Many competitors have their chambers honed, so that the low-power shells they use will fly out of the chambers after firing by simply "flicking" the open shotgun rearward. However, this won't work with higher-power shells like buckshot or slug.

2. Their sight is usually just a bead, and in these cheaper guns, as often as not, the bead is off-center. I'd recommend looking at this carefully, and perhaps replacing the factory bead with something like the Express Sights "big-dot-style" bead.

3. They usually have two triggers. This is an advantage, IMHO, as it gives you instant choke selection if you install chokes: but it also calls for care in the operation of the gun. If you shoot the gun with your forefinger on the front trigger and your middle finger on the rear trigger, as I learned to do in Africa, you need to develop the habit of shooting with the rear finger first, then the front finger. Do it the other way round, and the back of the front trigger will push against the top of the middle finger on the rear trigger, with predictable results. A double discharge of buckshot or slugs out of a lightweight coach gun does interesting things to your shoulder! Don't ask me how I know this...

My current "coach gun" is a Stevens Model 311 20ga. that I had cut down. You might want to look at the 20ga. models: for HD use, they're almost as effective as the 12ga. models (a 20ga. buckshot shell has the same energy as two .44 Magnums, which is nothing to sneeze at!). The recoil is considerably less.

Slugs can be fired, but accuracy will, of course, suffer in the absence of a set of sights. You can get hits out to 50-60 yards with a bead, given practice.

Finally, most of these coach guns come with no recoil pad at all, or at best a rather ineffective one. I'd strongly recommend trimming the stock to fit you and adding a Kick-Eez or Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad. These help considerably in reducing felt recoil.

 

[Johnpl]

I have a Stoeger Uplander 12 gauge w/ 26 inch barrells. The only problem I had was when the solder holding the rib between the barrells loosened up. Called Stoeger, they had me send the gun back, and replaced it with a brand new one. BTW, the newer ones seem to be of a better finish than the older ones.

 

[Hutch]

I had one of the Baikals that Preach' described, and he's right about the stiffness. I shoot from the left shoulder, and the lever was verrrrrry hard to operate. In addition, when broken open, it requires some pressure on it to keep it that way. It wants to return to a partially opened state when either the forend or the grip is released. This is MURDER on cowboy shooters.

I really, really wanted this thing to work for me for SASS competitions, but I've changed over to a NorChester '97 clone.

BTW, with standard dove loads, the little double kicked like a jug-headed mule. Same ammo in the '97, which is lighter and has no rubber buttplate is much less punishing.

 

[boots]

method of operation...

...of the baikal and stoeger are different, both are unfamiliar to me. i had always assumed that you break open the gun to load it, load shells, close action, then cock the hammers back. from what i've read, it seems that the stoeger is cocked by breaking open the gun, and that implies to me, that you cannot have the stoeger loaded with hammer down. baiikal, i have no idea how it works. please clarify for me. thank you.


and from what i've read, the baikal is 4 times stronger than it needs to be while the stoeger is only 3 times as strong as it needs to be...

 

[GHILLIE]

I have one of the Baikal coach guns with the external hammers...the earlier style that have the internal firing pins. The triggers are quite good on mine, however I have fired some others that were stiff. My action is finally broken in, but was very stiff for awhile. I put a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad on it, which tames it nicely. The prefit model for the Ramline synthetic rifle stock is a very close fit...the screw holes match up perfectly, and very little fitting of the pad was required. I am lucky as far as slugs are concerned, as mine will put Winchesters about 1"-2" apart at 50 yards and pretty well centered to point of aim with the bead. I have never had a sxs that would shoot slugs worth a darn at any kind of distance before this one. There is more than enough meat on the barrels to allow internal choke tubes to be fitted if so desired. I am more than pleased with my double, and would recommend them highly.

 

[boots]

everybody, thanks for your

replies, as they have all been very informative. one thing that i've noticed is that many give the baikal the nod for durability, but i've discovered someting quite perplexing. the sturdier baikal will accept 2 3/4' shells, while the stoeger will accept 3" shells. if the stoeger is able to be kept loaded with hammer down, i think i'll buy this one right here...


http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=11197686

 

[GHILLIE]

boots, the coach gun you linked to does not have external hammers, therefor it cocks when you open the gun...there is no way to decock it after loading it. You will need to find one with external hammers to be able to load the gun without having to cock it.

 

[boots]

you're right...

i think i'll get the baikal with real hammers, anybody know where to get one?

 

[Preacherman]

Boots, EAA has a dealer search facility on their Web site - click here and enter your Zip code. The Baikal shotguns are also distributed by most major companies in the field. You should have no trouble finding one.

The model you want is listed here, and there's a handy "Order Online" button on the page that takes you to Davidson's. They have a Gun Locator function which will find the gun for you, and you can order it online to be sent to a local FFL.

 

[boots]

any diff

functionally between the real exposed hammers, and the fake cocking hammers?

 

[Preacherman]

Yes. The "fake cocking hammers" actually don't de-cock the internal firing pins. That shotgun works just like one without external hammers: once you open and close it, it's ready to roll, and the firing pins are in the cocked position. The other one, with the "real" hammers, is like the old "Lupara" that Jeff Cooper likes so much. Unless the hammers are cocked, the gun is "at rest", with no spring tension. You could leave it like that for years with no problem. Only when the hammer is cocked back is it ready to roll.

 

[boots]

manual decock?

so with the fake hammers, once broken open and shut, it is cocked. can you manually decock the fake hammers, and thereby rendering the springs tensionless like the real hammers? all i want is for the shotgun to be kept loaded, with hammer down, no tension on the springs. do i need the real hammer model for what i'm looking for? BTW... thanks for everybody's imput

 

[boots]

so can

you answer my question? the only real difference i see in between the fake hammer models, and the real hammer model.


1. real hammer: open, load, close, and it is at a safe mode(hammers uncocked) cock and fire as desired.


2. fake hammer better for speed. opening the action cocks the internal hammers, and the fake hammers, whereas by closing the action, the gun is ready to fire once the safety is disengaged. but, the gun can be kept safe, with no tension on the springs, when the fake hammers are manually decocked, and lowered on a loaded chamber.


am i right? please inform me if the method of operation of the two guns are acurately described by me in this post. i want to rid myself of any misconceptions.


BTW... i don't like it when people don't take the time to search, and leech off others. for example: posting something about finding a good shotgun, when that same subject has been discussed in great detail, and all that had to be done to find the neccessary info was to use the search function.
i mention this because i want to assure everybody that i am no leech. i searched for all the info here about the baikal, and also searched on tfl, and the questions i ask, are things i need to know that i could not find using the search function. i also want everybody to know, that their information is GREATLY appreciated. (thank you preacherman)

 

[Preacherman]

No problem, Boots. We all started out not knowing much, and all of us have learned from others.

As far as I know (and I speak subject to correction - I'd suggest you contact EAA and ask them: their phone number is listed on their Web site, at the links I posted earlier), the "fake hammer" gun ALWAYS has the firing-pins "cocked", even when the hammers are not cocked. The hammers, in fact, serve as an external safety device. However, the gun with "real hammers" is fully de-cocked (i.e. no pressure on springs in the firing system) when the hammers are de-cocked. Thus, the second model is the one you want (EAA model IZH43KH [Bounty Hunter II]).

 

[boots]

thank you

i found a good source if anybody is interested...


$330 shipping included for the eaa baikal bounty hunter 2 izh43kh

functional hammers.


http://www.ozarkguns.com/shotguns/eaa/eaa_cowboy_shotguns.htm

 

[citizen]

GLAD you got your response, boots; I think many of us were waiting also.

 

[boots]

citizen

my apologies if you've tired of this thread...

 

[citizen]

boots-

HARDLY; my friend.
That EXACT subject has been on a back burner of mine for so long..... I would take you up on the sourcing suggestion, however; my fav FFL is listed as an EAA/Baikal dealer. Thanks, though.

 

[boots]

i think i'm 100% certain of my choice.

thank you everybody for your kind/informative words, and i now have more knowledge on double guns than 80-92% of the general population. thanks to ya'll. i appreciate all your time, and i'll follow up on this thread by posting a range report. thanks again.



almost forgot... my choice will be... product code IZH43KH

EAA Baikal Bounty Hunter 2 12ga 20" barrels, functional external hammers...


seems to be best suited for HD. IMO... which is what i'm looking for.

 

[Preacherman]

If you really want to impress someone on the wrong end of that gun, polish up the muzzle crowns into bright, shining circles... leaves an unforgettable impression, and is guaranteed to cure the most difficult case of constipation in even the most hardened criminal!

 

[bubbygator]

If you look around at some other sites, you might find that slugs & buckshot are not recommended for Home Defense due to over-penetration. At inside-the-house distances, normal shot should do the job, particularly with 12 GA. Find the info on cylinder bore pattern (usually given at 30 yards) and extrapolate back to like 5-15 yards, so you have an idea of how closely you need to aim with your selected shotgun. The pattern is still rather small at close distances.

I had an old rabbit-ear 12 GA that had apparently been standing in a basement muzzle-down on cement; the front of the barrels were a mess. Bought it for $100 & whacked it off to 18 legal inches & had a wonderful home gun for a long time. When the action is free & easy, they are really a joy to handle - you can one-hand open & close it by flipping your wrist. Eventually sold it for $220; got a Winchester Defender now... it does the job.