Looking for advice from a Newbie

[browningguy]

Sorry folks, but a 12 ga. pump shotgun is absolutely the worst thing to recommend to non-shooters just getting started. Relatively poorly designed stocks (particluarly on the cheap guns) and a decent amount of recoil will not enamour "most" new shooters and immediately reduce the amount of practice. But feel free to fool yourself into believing otherwise if you'd like.

Although my personal choices are the best for me personally, they are not for people that will not practice reasonably often. I carry single action semi-auto pistols, and semi-auto rifles and carbines.

Although I own neither of these I am becoming quite enamoured with them, particularly for new shooters.

Rifle
Remington Pump action .223 - high capacity AR mags, accurate enough, relatively simple to operate, from all accounts very reliable, also very low recoil. http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700264882.html but you can find them cheaper at Gander Mountain.

Springfield XD9 in service or tactical length (4" or 5" barrel)
High capacity, simple operation, reliable, low recoil from 9mm round, ability to mount laser or light on the frame. I just don't like a Glock, so sue me, doesn't point well and has no type of safety besides keep your finger off the trigger. The XD trigger feels good to me, it points more naturally for me, and it has the huge (to me) advantage of an additional grip safety ala the 1911.

 

[gyp_c2]

...just a thought...

...of course, it'll depend on you to acquaint the kids to your new found tech, and it may be one of the most important things you ever do...

My kids were raised around guns...they were never toys, they were never hidden and they were always respected...Make yourself into a perfect role model around the firearms and introduce the kids to them in an intelligent way...
If you are a perfect example and not a preacher, they will respond in kind...

You will have to judge, only -you- know yourself, and your kids well enough to make the decision of how and when to present your new tech.

...just don't leave them out of the equation. Who knows, maybe what you teach them will save you all some day...

...welcome to the High Road...

 

[SoCalShooter]

I am a little surprised that nobody mentions carbines besides myself...

Not true. Shotgun is overall a great weapon for HD, you dont have a problem with over penetration depending on the load and everyone knows the sound of a shotgun chambering, that itself is ominous enough. Plus if you get close you can use it to club the hell out of someone.

 

[GoRon]

Sorry folks, but a 12 ga. pump shotgun is absolutely the worst thing to recommend to non-shooters just getting started.

I bought a 12 gauge pump to venture into some three gun matches locally. I was new to shotguns and have to say I did not enjoy shooting the thing at all. The three gun match never happened due to work schedule.

Fast forward a year and I had some friends get me involved with trap shooting. Learned how to properly hold the gun and lead the target, tons a fun.

Took that pump 12 gauge to a three day class and enjoyed shooting slugs and 00 buck.

Getting some training is key.

 

[Stiletto Null]

1. What type of handguns to get (money is not a barrier, though we certainly don't need any exotic or especially high performing (costly) weapons, given our purpose)?
2. Should we consider a rifle either instead of a handgun, or perhaps in addition to it?
3. How do we keep our weapons from being used, in our absence, by our children, or by their friends, or by someone who shouldn't be in our house (not that that has ever happened), and still ensure that the weapon is available for our use at a moment's notice?
4. Is there some special kind of safeguard we could get?

If your goal is to become proficient with your guns as defensive tools, and not so much for their own sake...

1.) You want a .22 handgun AND a centerfire handgun, in 9mm, .40, or .45. Are you considering concealed carry at all? If so, then you'll probably want a more compact defensive handgun, and for home defense you should probably stick with a shotgun or carbine of some sort. Carry pieces are designed to be smaller and lighter for concealability—these are both bad for shootability, and if you do opt for concealed carry, remember that you must practice so that shooting is more muscle memory than it is conscious effort.

2.) I dunno about a rifle rifle if you're getting it strictly for defensive purposes, but a .22 rifle is a good thing to have just for marksmanship. If you need to economize, getting a pistol carbine of some sort in the same caliber as your chosen defensive handgun makes a lot of sense, and while the ballistic advantage won't be much (note: .357 out of a carbine gains a LOT of oomph over .357 out of a revolver, but then again it hits pretty hard to begin with), it will be much easier to shoot accurately with, especially under stress. If you're not terribly worried about ammo costs, get a shotgun, in 12- or 20-gauge. I suggest 12 gauge, simply because there's more ammo available.

3. When you're not around, lock 'em in a safe. NEVER leave a usable gun (i.e. loaded gun, or the unloaded gun and the ammo for it) out unattended.

4. Lock 'em in a safe. I'm personally not a fan of on-gun locks of any sort. If you need it, you need it, and frankly locks are a pain to get off even if you're not freaking out.

***

How I would go about getting a minimum arsenal, and slightly high prices:

• Defensive handgun: CZ-75B, 9mm - $450.
• .22 handgun: CZ Kadet conversion for CZ-75 - $300. You could get a second pistol altogether for a bit less, BUT it's particularly valuable because it lets you shoot .22LR out of a CZ-75. This makes sense because if you can use the Kadet kit to keep up muscle memory and such, you won't actually need to use up as much 9mm for skills maintenance. (Not that 9mm is terribly expensive, but being able to work with the usual controls ergonomics without having to worry about recoil is a good thing.)
• .22 rifle: Marlin 60 - $150. If you were more interested in a plinker, I'd say to get something a bit more highbrow (like a CZ 452 Military Trainer), but this is basically just to get you used to firing a shoulder gun without the expense of shooting shotshells all the time. I guess this one's kind of optional.
• Shotgun: Maverick 88 Security, 18.5" - $200. Kind of ugly, but it'll work just fine.

So that'll give you a respectable armory for $1100 or less. Chances are you could find a decent used .22 pistol (revolver or semiauto) for around $200 at gun shops, but I really like the CZ-75/Kadet combo. Used shotguns of higher tier than the Maverick 88 (think Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 Express) will usually be available for $200~$250, sometimes less if you're lucky. Ignore the movies, you don't want a pistol-grip-only shotgun—they're kind of hard to aim, and if you don't know what you're doing, it's pretty easy to punch yourself.

Add on $200 to get a few boxes of 9mm and 12ga, a couple of bricks of .22, and cleaning supplies, and you'll be good to go for anything up to and including major urban unrest. And who knows, if you decide that you do like shooting just for the fun of it, you'll already have perfectly good fun guns.

 

[Baba Louie]

tripp
Welcome to THR and hopefully the world of self reliance vis a vis self/home defense.
Look in the upper right corner of each page here at THR and you'll see the THR Library. Click on it. Read up on the four rules of firearms safety, terms, etc. Lotsa reading, lotsa wise thoughts.
Home defense... Peruse the Strategies and Tactics forum here.
Think layers of defense, lights on motion detectors, dogs, etc.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp

If you've never shot a handgun before, I strongly suggest starting your journey w/ a .22 revolver or semi-auto. Teaches good habits, nil recoil, fun, builds confidence (and would ruin someones day if need be), ammo is cheap.
From that point, once you and your wife can crawl very well and are ready to walk, move up the power ladder to a .38 special revolver or 9mm semi-auto. Several well made mfgs, & models abound. Whatever feels right and you both can shoot well. 4" barrel is better than a snub nose for a newbie. 6" is too much.

Next, when you're there and you know your stuff, can shoot straight and fast; should you feel the need for serious energy transfer look at either shotguns (I prefer a 20 ga.) or self loading carbines. There are drawbacks and trade-offs to each. Nothing wrong with a double barrel shotgun (O/U's are good for breaking clay pigeons too). I always suggest to newbies that, like handguns, you should begin that journey with a .22 rifle (in fact, if you were getting into firearms for the sake of firearms and shooting sports, that's really where you should start. Handguns are harder and require more concentration and practice).

Others have covered lockup and storage safety.

Finally, maintaining proficiency. Know that skills will deteriorate if left unattended. Mindset is another matter you'll have to master. Could you, or your wife, actually point a firearm at someone who means you (or your family) harm and pull the trigger?


Stick around, ask more questions, keep us posted. Good hunting.

 

[Mandirigma]

Just adding a little to the renting factor. Make sure you rent out a variety of Calibers as well. I'm talking about perceived recoil. A .45 from a 1911, kicks a little differently than from a Glock. A gun that is perfect to you, make feel funny to your wife.

 

[trippstadt]

Wow

I'd like to thank each of you personally, but that's simply not possible. One of you who lives in the area has offered to take me to a small arms range, and I'd like to take him up on that.

There's a LOT of good advice posted in response to my original post, and while I've read each and every word, I'll be re-reading it all (and looking at other suggested sources) prior to making decisions, and it is ABSOLUTELY my intent to acquire and retain sufficient knowledge and skill to ensure the proper and safe use and maintenance of these weapons. Message received. - Tripp

 

[up_onus]

Somebody has mentioned that a shotgun you dont get overpenetration...
What are you shooting?? birdshot?? Well, if you plan to use a shotgun for self defense....no.....and if you use what you are supposed to use, YES you will get overpenetration...comon now! If a pistol can overpenetrate, so can a shotgun :-|

 

[DogBonz]

Tripp...

Welcome to THR. It is great to see people taking the responsible approach to gun ownership, and not just rushing in.

I will agree with those who said to start with a .22. Weather you buy or rent, they are inexpensive and wonderful teaching tools. The best thing about a 22 is that it allows you to focus on the fundamentals of shooting such as sight alignment, trigger control, and breathing, with out you brain worrying about the BANG. It is far easier to learn good habits than to unlearn bad ones. My favorite 22 pistol is the Ruger 22/45. You can find them used for as low as $150, maybe less. Learning this way will allow you to build the proper muscle memory so that you can shoot more accurately, and do so faster, which is what you will want to be able to do if heaven forbid you ever need to. Just listen to your instructor, and I’m sure you will be fine.

When you are ready to step up to a larger caliber, I’m going to be a dissenter to the revolver crowd. In college my friends and I ran an unofficial program in conjunction with our range to take people who had never shot before and take them shooting. After shooting the 22, the gun that most people liked best was the Sig Sauer 229. It is a high quality 9mm pistol that both men and women said was comfortable to hold and shoot. They are very accurate, extremely reliable, and have one of the smoothers triggers in an available gun. It holds 12 rounds of 9mm, so you have plenty of fire power, and magazines give you the ability to reload quickly. It is an all metal gun, so the weight helps to reduce felt recoil. They are a bit more money than the others mentioned here, but I feel that they are worth every penny or else I would not own one personally. Also, I like the night sights as they allow you to see your sights in low, or even no light. Try one of the Sig Sauer pistols, and you will like them.

I second everyone who has recommended a RSC or safe of some kind, and educate your children. From what I hear, the Eddie Eagle program is great. The 22 is also excellent for teaching youngsters.

 

[GEM]

My two cents:

A. Quality training is much more important than the techy babble about gun types. A trained person with any of the modern semis or handguns is better than an untrained purpose who talks about this or that load or gun and has no training beyond paper punching on the square range.

B. If you are serious, take a basic pistol course to get the mechanics and then look for beginning tactical courses and continue to advance up the training stream.

C. I agree with the cautions on the shotgun. Not to flame, but it is a cliche to suggest the racking shotgun with alternating buck and slugs, etc. Without some idea of its use and experience with it - it is not a good choice.

Here is a nice discussion of the issue from my friend Karl Rehn:

Why a rifle instead of a shotgun for home defense?

1) Shorter. 16" barrel legal for rifle vs 18" barrel for shotgun. Manipulation of a long gun indoors around furniture and people, while keeping the muzzle in a safe direction but also being able to quickly bring it up and on target, is more difficult as the barrel length increases.

2) Capacity. Most semiauto rifles and pistol caliber carbines hold at least 10 rounds. Most practical length shotguns hold 5-10 shells. While most home defensive shootings require few rounds, reloading a shotgun is signficantly slower than reloading a magazine fed semiauto rifle or pistol caliber carbine.

3) Less recoil. 12 ga shotgun w/ buckshot loads have equal or greater recoil than a big-game rifle. By comparison a pistol caliber carbine or medium power rifle (.223, 7.62, .30-30) is easier on the shooter which makes accurate shooting easier. Often the "family long gun" is something that any family member could use if needed, but typically most family members are not as enthusiastic about shooting or as comfortable with recoil as the primary gun owner. Choosing a "family long gun" that's easier and more comfortable to shoot increases the chances they will enjoy shooting the gun and become more skilled in its use. If a shotgun is preferred, a semiauto shotgun such as the Remington 1187 has significantly less recoil than a pump shotgun.

4) Faster shot recovery. See "less recoil". It is unrealistic to expect that a single hit from any firearm will cause an 'immediate stop'. Since multiple shots will likely be required, follow up shot speed matters.

5) Simplicity in operation. Manually operated long guns (pump and lever action) require the user to remember to manually cycle the action between shots; with a semiauto all that's required is to continue pulling the trigger until the fight is over. While this may not be a concern for the primary gun user, the less trained family member using the gun under life-threatening stress may find this a problem. Even in the hands of an experienced shooter, manually cycling the gun's action takes time and can be done improperly, causing a malfunction. Clearing malfunctions with manually operated long guns is more complex and slower than malfunction clearing with semiauto long guns, particularly semiauto rifles.

6) Simplicity in ammo selection. With a rifle there's no need to have 3 different types of ammo (birdshot, buckshot and slugs) and try to switch between them as shot distances changes. Changing ammo requires on-the-fly target distance estimation, decision making and time to manipulate the shotgun.

7) Ease of precision shot placement. The most complex situation is one in which a family member or other person is between the shooter and the threat, in the line of fire. With a rifle, precise shot placement is much simpler. With a shotgun, the shooter must know the exact relationship between visual alignment of the gun and the center of the shot pattern, and be able to estimate the shot pattern size at the target's estimated range in order to determine whether the person in the line of fire might be hit.

8) Less sensitive to dominant eye issues. Shotguns shoot instinctively unless the shooter has a dominant eye opposite the dominant hand. Then shotgunning is more difficult. Rifle - particularly scoped rifle - is less dependent on eye-hand dominance being on the same side.

9) Penetration concerns. Shotguns are often favored over rifles because of concerns that shotgun pellets are less likely to overpenetrate and are more likely to be stopped by walls and other inanimate objects. Some studies and reports (1, 2, 3, others available online) indicate that the shotgun's reputation for "low penetration" is exaggerated and that there are penetration concerns regardless of what ammunition is used.

from - http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/deflonggun.html - there are some further links on the issue at this page.

------ But you need to train a bit with the long arm.

D. If you are serious, then you need to advance to courses with a serious scenario/FOF compotent when you get the basics down. Some argue that they are self trained warriors, etc. - sorry to flame. However, if you read the literature on training - two recent studies - one out of Norway and another from the Canadian police simulator training experiences - have demonstrated that FOF or simulator training significantly increases subjective feelings of situational awareness and objective performance indicators of situational awareness plus use of firearms performance. Just buying a gun with whatever techy babble recommendations without some experience with it, is not optimal.

A major part of firearms usage is mindset, the ability to avoid trouble, awareness, understanding the legalities, etc. That is more important than the gun - given you have a modern quality firearm.

E. If you want a gun now for protection - that is not a bad idea as most civilian defensive gun usages are successful and usually involved simple deterrence. You want a gun that is instantly usable without manipulations you are unfamilar with or might booble in stress - like the pump guns or even a semiautomatic pistol.

In that case, until you are trained up - consider a plain jane 38 SPL revolver. The guns by SW or Ruger would serve. Don't get 357 full power loads but some of the milder but quality 38 spl self defense loads - such as the ones by Federal or Gold Dots - you can find them in most stores.

F. About the kids - you need a lock box with some kind of quick combo access. One problem is that the gun can be rooms away in an emergency. Lots of folks carry a gun at home if you truly feel that you need quick response. I'm not one to trust just lecturing the kids. Being a psychologist, you may trust your kids but I've seen clueless parents as to the problems of kids.

To sum up - train, read - the technical details are really not that important. If you know the concept of the percentages of variance that are important in a gun fight, you will find that with a quality gun of => 38 cal and that is easy to use, the guns make little contribution as compared to the user.

 

[up_onus]

Great post Gem

 

[trippstadt]

Follow-Up

Well, I met ZeSpectre on Thursday night at the NRA Range here in Fairfax, VA, and after an hour or so spent with him going over the basics one-on-one (which was great and incredibly informative), I took the NRA's test (got a 100%), and went on to the range with ZeSpectre (who I will refer to as "Z" from now on).

I had a GREAT time! I fired a number of handguns (revolver, single-action, double-action, semi-auto, different calibres, different ammunition types, etc.). This was my first time firing a handgun AND my first time firing a rifle (I'd only fired shotguns before), and with what I learned that night, I was actually able to have an intelligent conversation with my brother-in-law last night, who's been a gun owner for 30 years. Z said I did pretty well for a first-timer. For example, I was very comfortable firing a .357 Magnum with one hand.

QUESTION: Do any of you think it would be an interesting thing if I were to post a "Newbie Blog" detailing my experiences as I progress, starting with my initial experiences, perceptions, etc., and perhaps ending after I've taken the training, purchased the guns, put my gun-safety-system (whatever that winds up being) in place, and gotten my kids trained? If there's any interest, I would be willing to put the effort into doing it. It would also motivate me to move forward more quickly, and to really think out my decisions knowing that they would become the source of discussion. - Tripp

 

[Froggy]

Tripp, I think sharing your learning / growing experiences in print is a great idea. Mostly because I think it will help other newcomers learn from another's experiences. But putting your thoughts in print -- organizing them so you can -- will also help you sort out ideas.

I'm glad you are off to such a good start.

 

[nelson133]

Tripp, it's great that you are getting hands on experience and the start of a good gun education. One thing you haven't mentioned is your wife. Will she be learning to use these weapons too? Remember what fits/suits you may not be right for her. Some women can shoot a big semiauto but haven't the hand strength to rack it, so a revolver may be better for her. Also, a 12 gauge shotgun may be fine for you and too much for her, if it is try a 20 gauge semiauto. The gas operated semis tend to have less recoil and you can buy lower recoil home defense ammo for the shotgun..

 

[akodo]

3. How do we keep our weapons from being used, in our absence, by our children, or by their friends, or by someone who shouldn't be in our house (not that that has ever happened), and still ensure that the weapon is available for our use at a moment's notice?

There are a plethora of options here, but first off, expose your kids to the Eddie Eagle program of what to do if they find a gun
-stop!
-do not touch it!
-find an adult!

Second, Gun Safe. Unfortunately, these run $1000. However, you can get a locking sheet metal gun cabnet for $200 which works great for storage of 4-5 long guns and some handguns. However, the guns probably won't survive a fire, and if a burglar brings a torch or a powersaw or maybe a pickaxe, he can probably get into the cabnet. In addition to this, there are hard sided gun cases that come with locks, or that have a ring for a paddlelock. I have one I picked up for $75, that is double wide, so I can fit 1 shotgun, 1 rifle, and 2 handguns in it. Finally in addition to all these options for securing the entire gun, there are trigger locks, $10-25, sometimes free from the police department.

Now, none of these really allows the gun to be immediately ready for use. However, there are some small gun safe/gun cabnets $75-200 that are designed to hold 1 or 2 guns, fit in a nightstand, and have finger grooves on the top, with the combination buttons at the tip of it, so you can reach over in the dark, place your fingers in the groove, push the 4 didget code you chose, and the door springs open, you reach in and pull out a gun (fully loaded or not)


4. Is there some special kind of safeguard we could get?

well, there are a few special safeguards, for example, you can have your gun internally modified so that it will only fire if the user is wearing a special magnetic ring....but that's not taht much different than a combination lock on the trigger or a key lock, and often those rings will screw up electronics etc.


2. Should we consider a rifle either instead of a handgun, or perhaps in addition to it?

Yes. First off, the heavier the gun, the less recoil you feel and the easier it is to control. I know, kind of counter-intuitive, but there it is. Rifles and shotguns, being bigger and heavier, all things being equal, are going to be easier to control. Second, as you place the stock against your shoulder and hold on with two hands, this creates a steadier platform for control and accuracy, even disregarding the weight issues. Third, because a rifle or shotgun has a longer distance between the front sight and the rear sight, it is easier for us humans to align the sights properly, which makes it easier to shoot accurately. Finally, in general, rifles and shotguns fire much more potent and powerful rounds than handguns. Ruger makes an excellent carbine that actually takes the same magazines as it's handguns, http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=4701 in 9mm and 40 S&W, another excellent choice would be a lever action (think cowboy)rifle from someone like winchester or marlin, http://www.impactguns.com/store/026495142001.html chambered in .357 magnum or .44 magnum, both of which are very much easier to shoot out of a rifle braced against your shoulder than they are from a handgun. A final tried and true weapon for home defense is a shotgun. Now, a 12 guage is the most common, and in certain hunting situations, that extra range and power can be important, but really for home defense a 20 guage, which is a little smaller shell and hence a bit softer recoiling, is still MUCH MUCH MUCH more powerful than any average handgun. I think the 20 guage remington upland special http://www.gunshopfinder.com/remington/remUplandSpecial.asp is an excellent blend of fine wood and solid gun, it's short field barrel makes it a good gun for grouse, but that same shorter than average barrel makes it handy in the home, without the intimidating looks some very short home defense shotguns can have. Not that there is anything wrong with that, besides, that type normally costs a bit less and holds a few more rounds.
mossberg at auction site

1. What type of handguns to get (money is not a barrier, though we certainly don't need any exotic or especially high performing (costly) weapons, given our purpose)?

There is no right answer here. Just identify your primary need. If it is giong to be for concealed carry, small and light is imporant. If it is for home defense, size is basically irrelevant, don't let someone steer you into something small.

Make sure you get a handgun in a reasonably potent caliber, also helps to have something common and easy to find ammo for. Any reasonably healthy person should be able to control a 9mm semi-auto, but if that is a bit much, you can always choose a .380, which is a shorter, less powerful version, usually found in smaller guns (sometimes the guns are enough smaller that it ends up feeling worse than a full sized 9mm) others slightly more powerful than 9mm for semi-autos that are also very common are 40S&W and 45ACP

For revolvers, the place to start and stop is 38 special and 357 magnum. Now, just so you know, the 357 magnum is just a slightly longer 38 special with a more potent gunpowder loading. What this means is you can buy a revolver in 357 (or a lever action gun) and shoot soft recoiling 38 specials in it and work your way up to 357s. A 38 special revolver can only ever fire 38 specials.
Remember, the smaller and lighter the gun, the more it will kick and recoil, all other things being equal.

How a handgun fits your hand and your wife's hand is important. Normally women have smaller hands than men, so some guns they may have a hard time reaching the controls. Also, semi-autos fall into 2 broad catagories, singlestack and doublestack magazines. double stack magazines hold more ammo, but are wider. Frequently in my experience women dislike 15 shot 9mm pistols, complaining about the recoil, when to me it seems just fine. Yet these same women like a single stack 45 with only 7-8 shots, saying it fells better to them, yet most guys say that the 45 recoils to much for them! I am convinced this is mostly due to the thinner grip allowing them to hold the gun better.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Trippstadt,
Thanks for the compliments. I enjoyed showing you the ropes and letting you get your feet wet with a few varities of firearms.

Zespectre.