LRN and FMJ

[offroaddiver]

according to a couple of manuals basically don't need to do anything different in 9mm. just go by the weight of the bullet or do i something more? anything new i need to learn for lead reloading (ie same steps as with my jacketed)? plan on plinking and lead is where i'm gonna really see a difference. shooting this through a sig 226. any

 

[Eric F]

makesure the bullets are lubed or leading will foul you up for sure and keep bullet speed down to recomended levels or again lead fouling will be a pain to get rid of.

 

[gunman42782]

The manuals I have all have different loads for jacketed and lead bullets. Usually need to have a lighter charge for lead (keep it under a 1000 FPS) or as mentioned, it will lead the heck out of the barrel.

 

[Shoney]

How fast you can push a lead bullet generally depends on two factors, Brinell hardness of the alloy, and diameter of the bullet in relation to the barrel its being fired from.

Cast bullets must be of a larger diameter than the bore in order to completely seal the barrel to prevent the burning powder's gasses from escaping past the bullet, while it is traveling down the bore. If the gasses slip by the lead bullet, the gas will act as an acetylene torch, and melt some of the lead from the bullet and deposit it in the bore. Gas rushing past a jacketed bullet does not have this effect. The increase in thickness can be anywhere from 0.001” to 0.004” depending on the many factors.

The trick is to match the correct powder and powder charge, with the correct hardness and diameter bullet.

Applying a crimp as the bullet is being seated shaves and misaligns the bullet, which throws accuracy off. For accuracy, I have found that the lead bullets must be seated in one operation then crimped in another operation to achieve best accuracy.

 

[Steve C]

Lead requires more load development work, experimentation, and knowledge learned from various sources to get a good accurate load that will not lead. Switch guns and you may have to do it all over again. It is a rewarding endeavor and is one of those things that makes reloading fun, for me at least.

 

[offroaddiver]

Hmm sounds like i'll be working batches and may need another barrel to work out the loads.

 

[Galil5.56]

Offroad,

If properly sized, of decent hardness for the pressures/velocity encountered, and properly lubed, leading will be no issue at all. Do you plan on casting or buying the bullets? Either way, you might strongly consider going .357" diameter, and even .358" if the throat and chamber will allow. For my guns, water quenched bullets I cast sized to .358" have been the ticket, with very, very little leading. Even if you buy "hardcast" bullets, the shipper friendly candle wax lube used by many is not effective. I will add a very thin layer of Lee liquid ALOX to these hardcast bullets to greatly improve their performance. I strongly suggest you do not go with the Speer style of swaged bullet. These are extremely soft, will lead your barrel terribly as they are, and are so soft that they can be swaged by the case during seating, and keyhole terribly.

As stated, charge weights will be less to get similar velocity using the same weight bullet, and because bullet pull is usually good with properly sized cast bullets, the taper crimp only need be enough to take out belling.

This page has a lot of good cast data, and what they report as velocity is pretty much what my chronograph tells me too.

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Cast in the 9mm High Power.htm

Good luck.

 

[res45]

I use Laser Cast bullets in my 357 I have pushed them to 1100fps for years with no leading problems and they shoot very accurately. http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/index.html Right now you can get 10% off Internet orders and the price listed includes the shipping. Acouple of other places you can look over also.

http://gardnerscache.com/cast_pistol_bullets.html Bullet are 15 BHS

http://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html They have allot of different size options as far as bullet dia.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/categories/11-0.php an alternative to using lead,you have to keep them around 1000fps.

 

[jfh]

I've shot severall thousand lead bullet reloads this year out of my 2" j-frames. Even though leading has not "really" been any sort of a problem, I'm using this shooting to tweak my lead-bullet knowledge.

It appears that my j-frames all like .358 diameter bullets--and I think that has minimized the leading. However, I like to use the Lee FCD die as my 4th die--and I am finding significant resizing in 38/357 with the FCD when I load .358 bullets with new brass. This is not the "crimp resistance" feel in the stoke; it is a distinct "double bump" as the bullet passes through the FCD.

Anyone have any observations on this FCD sizing?

I've already found that the Penn Bullets "really hard" casting (22 BHN?) is of less benefit for leading than is the Mastercast "just hard" casting (16 BHN or so).

Galil.556: I'm testing some of the Speer 158LSWC-HP bullets now--I've noted no leading, but I've barely shot them: I'm having trouble with crimping / bullet jump--and interestingly, only on the 5th cartridge. I'm dialling in more crimp, but I'm wondering about swaged bullets and appropriate powder / charge needs as a way to minimize the swage leading....any observations you have would be appreciated.

For further info, you might read posts in the "handguns" forum over on Handloads.com--there are people there routinely driving lead bullets to well over 1200 fps with minimal or no leading. Some cast their own, others buy--but the common denominator is that all of them have tweaked their recipes in all areas to fit a particular handgun.

Jim H.

 

[Galil5.56]

jfh,

I have never used a Lee FCD for any pistol round, but the bump may be the bulge in the case being squeezed through somthing (the sizer)?

The reason I have never used the FCD, was I was under the impression that it tries to squeeze the cartridge to SAAMI external specs, these would swage a cast bullet to a smaller size. I like the bulge (esp in auto pistols), and have never found a situation where a taper crimp die has not worked for me if I stayed with a bullet that was properly for my certain pistol, especially as it relates to the chamber. I use .358" in my 3" J frame as well as my 9mm pistols with good results.

I just pulled a sample of the loads I have ready to shoot in 38 special, and:



the Speer 158 is to the far right, swaged Hornady 158 far left, "hardcast" 148 BBWC, then a Lee 124 TC sized at .358". I have added Lee liquid ALOX to the Hornady and the wadcutter to help eliminate leading. The Lee water quenched bullet lubed with liquid ALOX is absolutely lead free when driven by 3.2 grains of Clays. The Speer 158 grain shown is loaded using HS-6, and driven to a chrononed spread of:

871
823
827
832
808

I do not use any paraffin/liquid lube on these bullets for fear of powder contamination over years of varied storage. Perhaps they changed the characteristics of these Speer 158 swaged slugs, but mine were bought and used since 1993, and I get severe leading using them as is. IMO, their incredible near pure lead softness, coupled with perhaps a very thin coat of graphite w/o any ALOX or beeswax is the problem.

I drive cast bullets in excess of 2000 fps using gas checks, and even plain base are good to 1200 or so if you do your homework. I love to work up cast bullet data, as it's the variables, hands on casting, attention to detail, and experimentation that makes it so rewarding when you get it right.

 

[jfh]

Thanks much for the additional info, Galil.556.

The FCD really shines for post-sizing for semi-autos and helps there simply with feed / chambering issues. For revolver cartridges, it will only post-size IF the round exceeds SAMMI dia. specs. I have it set up to crimp only, with post-sizing occurring only if the cartridge is out-of-spec (obviously). It's an ideal setup for 4-die configurations, IMO, because it makes it so easy to seat ONLY then crimp, with dialling-in the crimp precisely.

FWIW, that oversize issue seems to exist only with new Starline brass and the .358 hard cast lead bullets. With the Speer 158LSWC HP, the diameter is also .358, but they pass through without any noticable resistance--so they must be dead soft, all right. As I write this answer out, it appears I just need to dial in more crimp on the FCD. I suppose the 'firm' crimp settings on the hard cast bullets are insufficient, and the actual crimp simply need to be much greater for the swaged Speers.

I may also try the Alox tip you gave--I have that on hand. Meanwhile, these cartridges are being initially tested under AA#5 and SR-4756. My goal is to try to get above 850 fps reliably from the 2" barrel revolvers, in 38 Special. Then, since most of my j-frames are the 357 size, I'll migrate that load over to 357 as a "357-lite load."

Thank you for your picture; they do help me to see the crimps. More later--

Jim H.

 

[Galil5.56]

Welcome jfh.

I too do the 2 step seat then crimp, especially when I have to really crimp the loads, i.e. 44 mag with really slow propellant. I can understand the idea and principal behind the FCD, but if it irons out the "non SAAMI" bulge on my auto ammo using cast bullets, it means it's ruining their sizing, and that will not work.

On a lark I tried some .354"/.355" cast slugs in my 9mm's (which mimics what we are discussing), and both keyholed as much as they didn't. For me, especially when loading 9mm, it is absolutely critical if using "fat" (larger than std .356" cast bullet sizing), that case selection with walls on the thin side be used for good chambering. Funny how most 9mm pistols have groove diameters of .357" or so, yet factory bullets run so small, and it seems are part of how/why SAAMI develops cartridge specs. Every time I hear how inaccurate "9mm rounds" are, I often think how much better it could be if ammo makers actually used bullets of a more appropriate spec? I'm sure it's for CYA reasons, as it is with American factory 8x57 loads...

Good luck, and I think from the powders you listed, you should find some dandy loads using 158 grain bullets.