M1 Garand: Powder Residue Marks on Brass?

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I would like to describe a situation that is happening with my Garand, and then I would like to propose what I think the reason may be for what is occurring.

When I last fired my Garand a few months ago, I noticed the spent casings all had what looked a bit like a bunch of lube dents around the shoulder and just a quarter inch or so to the rear of the shoulder. No, they were not lube dents from reloading. The cartridges went into the Garand bright and shiney, and the bore and chamber of the Garand were absolutely clean before shooting. I thught the marks were due to powder residue in the chamber after firing, so I cleaned the chamber and the bore. After cleaning, I fire five more rounds of a different loading, and there were no more funny marks on these spent cases.

Yesterday I fired two clips of ammo from the same Garand and started with a clean chamber and bore. The first clip was Korean surplus ammunition with a 150 grain bullet and an extruded IMR type powder. All of the first eight rounds came out with no funny dents. Then I fired eight rounds I had loaded with a 150 grain bullet and surplus 852 powder. The first empty came out with no marks. The last seven cases all came out with a whole bunch of the strange marks I described earlier.

Now, for my hypothesis: When I checked on the ammo I fired a few months ago and got the first funny marks, it turned out to be the same ammo I loaded with surplus 852 powder. I know from trying this powder in my lever action 45-70, there was a lot of apparently unburned powder or just plain residue that came out of the action when a fired case was ejected. With this in mind, I am wondering if the surplus 852 powder is not being burned fully in the Garand and allowing some to remain in the chamber. If that were the case, the next round would have marks imprinted on the case when that round was then fired.

Well, that's my idea of the situation, and I am wondering if anyone else has ever had anything similar occur? I have been reloading since the mid 1960s, and I do not remember anything like this before. I have also been using various surplus powders all those years quite satisfactorily, but I am beginning to think the 852 may be a bad choice for the Garand. Any thoughts or ideas?

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[winwun]

I had the identical thing happen to me only in an M-1 carbine. I was using Hogdon's powder, which I have found to be, for me, at least, generally unsatisfactory. I was getting "pebbled" cases, and since I am picky as an Old Maid about the appearance as well as the performance of my loads, needless to say I was unhappy with seeing the new nickle cases come out looking peened.

I don't have a book handy, so I don't know if it will work for the '06, but what cured my problems was switching to IMR 4227 for the carbine. I use what Hogdon's I have left for starting campfires on damp days.

 

[hps1]

David:

While I know nothing about 852 surplus powder characteristics, it sounds to me as if it is a slow burning powder since all is not consumed. Slow burning powder is a no-no in the garand! The garand has an extremely strong receiver, but slow powders can damage (as in bend) your op-rod due to the fact that the gas port pressures are considerably higher than what the rifle was designed for. Breech pressure is not the problem w/slow powders.

The garand was designed for powders with a burn rate in the neighborhood of IMR 4895 or H 4895. Faster powders than these are OK, but not slower.

Another thing that is probably occuring in your rifle is that the case neck is not expanding rapidly enough or possibly fully enough to seal the chamber, thus letting "young gas" back part way into chamber. This can also be caused by brass that has been hardened by repeated reloadings.

Do your rifle a favor & get some 4895, you'll like it and so will the rifle. Works great with 150 - 165 grain bullets.

Regards,
hps

 

[Quantrill]

I agree with hps1. The Garand was designed for 4895 powder. While I personally have never seen a damaged M1 from slower powder, I have heard of such from knowledgeable folk. Don't use the slower powder. Quantrill

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I know a lot of folks sing the praises of 4895 and talk about slower powders being bad for the Garand. Many years ago, however, we used to use surplus 4831 in our M1s without any problems. We used about 54 to 55 grains of 4831 which nearly filled the case, and the bullets would slightly compress the powder. These loads had no need for a crimp since the bullets would not move without a press and die.

Based on this experience, I just do not buy the idea that slower powder cannot be used in the Garand. I do have plenty of 4895, but I would prefer to use a ball powder that meters better than extruded powder.

In any case, I have pulled the bullets on a whole bunch of loads with the 852 powder and will give up on it. I have also been using the 4895 without the problem I mentioned in my first post, but I would like to see if anyone else has any experience with a slower ball powder in the Garand. I could use WC-846 which is a surplus ball powder used in the .308, but it is a faster powder and does not fill the case to the point where the bullet will compress it.

Any other thoughts or ideas?

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[hps1]

David:
If I were going to try for a full case of powder and shoot it in a Garand, I would put one of these vented gas plugs on it first:

http://www.adcofirearms.com/gasnuts.cfm

Any powder with which you can fill the case will be considerably slower than the intended powder for garands. With the current price of op-rods, I would not want to risk it, myself.

Have never seen one of these plugs in use, but have heard they do the job by opening the valve and shooting a round, then closing valve a tad and shoot another until the action will just cycle reliably. See no reason why it wouldn't work.

IIRC, the op-rod problem is the reason ordnance swithched to the lighter M2 Ball round using the 150 gr. bullet rather than the 30-03 cartridge with a heavier bullet that had been standard in the Springfields.

Regards,
hps

 

[Steve Smith]

Ball powder may meter better, but it is much more temperature sensitve. Go to stick. Besides, you have to consider the amount of deviation in comparison to the entire throw. While IMR 4895 may thow +- .5 grains, it takes a full grain in that case to make much of a difference anyway, and .5 grains in a 50 grain case is .5% deviation. I won't use 4895 in a .223 because of the deviation, but I will in a .308 or .30-06.