M1917 Woes and Advice

[Nugilum]

Here’s what’s going on,

I purchased an Eddystone salvage grade M1917 from the Anniston, AL CMP store a week ago. Last Tuesday I learned that I needed to have the rifle checked before I test fire it. This afternoon (5/30/2009), I went to a gun store and had them check it out with “go/no-go” gauges.

He had it for 15+ minutes in the back so I knew there had to be a problem. He came out with my rifle and a Ruger M77 Mark II in .30-06. He then proceeded to show me how these gauges work on the Ruger. He then showed me what my M1917 did.

The bolt would close on the “no-go” gauge , and would not close with the “go” gauge…



I guess the laws of physics don’t apply to me. I’ve heard about M1917 having tight chambers, but come on…

Since my M1917 is an Eddystone, taking the barrel off or changing the head space is a risky venture. What options do I have except for re-barreling it?

FYI: I don’t keep wall hangers. Either they work or they’re parts.

 

[Badger Arms]

I'm confused, you're saying that the chamber is short or long?

If it's short (not enough headspace) then just have a gunsmith run a reamer in it. If it's too long, you have to take the barrel off and set it back one thread, then recut the chamber a little deeper. Both simple and doable. Not sure what a gunsmith would charge to do the work.

A "Go" gauge is the minimum chamber dimension, "No-Go" is the maximum. If it closes on the no-go and not on the go, your safest bet would be to get some Cerrosafe and do a chamber casting to figure out what's really going on.

 

[Nugilum]

Yea, it makes no sense, right? It will close on a "no-go" gauge and will not close on a "go". I did it, so I can't deny it.

Taking these barrels off isn't as strait forward as one might think. When they were assembled, they really cranked the barrels into the receivers. There's a good chance that taking the barrel off the receiver (without taking some relief cuts into the barrel, which ruins the barrel) will crack the receiver.

 

[rcmodel]

Totally illogical!

Did your gunsmith strip the bolt to make sure there was no striker interference when trying the gages?

If he didn't, he doesn't know how to use headspace gages.

The other thing is, even a brand new 1917 probably has excess headspace after forcing a no-go guage in it several times.

The 1917 action has tremendous closing cam force in the bolt, unlike any other bolt gun I can think of.

You can make a No-Go guage fit in one, even if you stretch something in the action doing it!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5181780&postcount=4

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=308966&highlight=1917+headspace

rc

 

[fguffey]

To me there is no mystery about head space gages, I make them, any size and I can check head space on any rifle with out a head space gage, some rifles I can check the head space three different ways. I have go, no, and beyond gages, not all are made alike, ONE requires the extractor to be removed, that one could be the source of all the rumors about removing the extractor, it does not have an extractor groove.

I do not have a rifle that shoots gages, all of my rifles shoot loaded ammo, I do not know the difference between the two gages that were used, I was not there, but if a conclusion could be drawn from the go-gage not allowing the bolt to close a test round (no primer/powder) when chambered would have been conclusive, and without a Sinclair, Hornady or RCBS anything the length of the case from the 30/06 DATUM (3/8-.375 diameter hole) to the head of the case can be measured to determine the effect the case has on head space. Again, I do not know of an Eddystone with a tight chamber, one if my M1917 Eddystones has .016 head space, I shoot it with .001 head space by necking up 280 Remington cases with a 30/06 full length sizer die and a .015 thousands gap between the top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die with the ram up, no guessing fractions of a turn, I go straight to the feeler gage, make the adjustment, remove the feeler gage then insert a .016 thick gage between the die and shell holder, raise the ram, remove the gage and check clearance, the thicker gage should have resistance when removed. I also acquire once fired cases from any source, I check the effect the head space had on the cases when fired, I allow someone else to stretch? the cases (blow out, form or move the shoulder forward), when I find cases with the shoulder moved out, I leave-um out by controlling shoulder sit back, again, BUMP sounds too much like an accident.

Sizing and checking the influence the case has on head space: I use gages as transfers, I determine head space and transfer the reading to the press when sizing with a feeler gage,. there is no twilight zone between checking head space and adjusting the press shell holder and die.

Side note, case protrusion, that is the part of the case that protrudes from the chamber, Enfield M1917 and the 1903 Springfield have .090+ thousands protrusion when measured from the bottom of the extractor cut to the head of the case, my Eddystone with .016 head space has .106 protrusion with .000 head space, the case head thickness of the military cases is .200 thick, commercial ammo, R-P, case head is .260+ thick, the thicker case head on the commercial case is a better choice with heavy loads.

F. GUffey

 

[fguffey]

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7309186

I took a chance, it was put together with out a floor plate, a mag box that was glassed in and then removed, no metal, just a glass box, a barrel that was bedded inside a box that served as a recoil lug etc., drilled and tapped with the rear sight bridge removed and a very short hook up between the cocking piece and trigger, anyhow, I won the auction, took it apart, it had a Timney trigger, It was advertised as the 'UGLYST', not a problem, the sum of all the parts or 'was it accurate?'.

The Auction Arms auction got the attention of a group on a forum, I thought the attention was going to drive the price up, I asked them to hold off until the auction was over, most did.

I took it to the range, rings and a 50MM scope that cost more than the rifle and a box of 50 rounds of hand loads, I expected a pattern, I got -1" groups at 100 yards with 10 loads of 5 rounds each, I applied the LEAVER POLICY, I am going to leaver the way I founder.

I built a 308 Norma Mag using DP 303 Winchester P14 with a M1917 take off barrel, complete with red/whites stripes and hole through the wood just ahead of the receiver ring, another with an Eddystone barrel in 30/06 using another DP P14 Winchester 303 complete with red and white stripes and a hole through the wood.

I enjoy taking the old ex-military types to the range, when I take this mob to the range plus a few others, no one wants to talk about their rifle.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Forgive, 'DP' before the P14 Enfield 303 rifles were returned from England, the English drilled a hole through the barrel just in front of the receiver ring, the hole included the stock and top wood, sum of all the parts? for parades and drill? I do not know, the hole through the barrel helps when removing the barrel.

And they stamped every part that was big enough for the 'DP' stamp, with, the DP stamp.

F. Guffey

 

[Bwana John]

Did your gunsmith strip the bolt to make sure there was no striker interference when trying the gages?

If he didn't, he doesn't know how to use headspace gages

Not only that but a M1917 needs a "Field" gauge to check for excessive headspace, not a "no-go".

 

[fguffey]

I would drill a hole in the head of the go, no or beyond gage if the striker interfered with the gage in anyway, the cock on close design of the M1917 would prevent the striker from getting in the way and I have 9 gages between the go and field gage and 4 that are 'beyond', for checking short chambers I have 11 shorter than the go gage. The hole in the base of the gage allows for checking head space without trigger/cocking pierce engagement. on my gages.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

and I agree, the go-gage is less than nice to have, unless the person using it is cutting the perfect chamber (.005 longer from the head of the case to the shoulder) for the perfect case (.005 shorter than the perfect chamber), it is like dirt, I do not live in the sterile world and the perfect chamber is allusive, I have better luck measuring the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder then transfer that measurement to my adjustable press, die and shell holder, to make perfect cases for my chambers.



F. Guffey

 

[NCsmitty]

The bolt would close on the “no-go” gauge , and would not close with the “go” gauge

This absolutely defies logic, as rcmodel noted.

A no-go gauge is usually .006 longer than the go gauge, so how is it possible to fit a longer gauge (no-go) into the chamber and yet not accept a shorter (go) gauge?

Something is wrong with this picture and a chamber cast should be done.

The 1917 action is a desirable item as a rule and although it's an Eddystone, it is still a good action. They were barreled with hydraulic equipment and sometimes require extra effort to remove.


NCsmitty

 

[rcmodel]

The only possible explanation I can even think of is:

The cock-on-closing bolt, with the striker & spring still in it, and pushing real hard?
With excess headspace that closed on a No-Go?

O.K.
What if the bolt lugs go clear through the receiver ring locking notches with a Go gage, and get hung up on the far side of them so it won't turn?

Grasping at straws here!

rc

 

[fguffey]

or, he chambered the go gage in the control feed type M1917 like he does in all the other rifles, that are push feed, and the extractor would not jump the head of the case to engage the extractor groove on the gage, and there could have been difference between the two gages he used.



F. Guffey

 

[Nugilum]

I put the gagues in the magazine well and allowed them to feed like a normal shell. FYI, no the bolt was not stripped.

Well, regardless my stock is out of commission for roughly two weeks. I'll start looking the action over again after I get it reassembled.

Interesting facts and ideas guys. Keep them coming!

 

[fguffey]

"O.K.
What if the bolt lugs go clear through the receiver ring locking notches with a Go gage, and get hung up on the far side of them so it won't turn?

Grasping at straws here!"

Just trying to help here, without a barrel there is a limit, the bolt handle is the third lug, very little room in front, make sure there is room behind the bolt handle to assure front lug contact.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

The M1917 safety is different in design from the Mauser and Springfield, the Mauser and Springfield safety can compress the spring when engaged, 'float the bolt', the M1917 spring can be compressed by pulling the cocking piece back and placing a spacer in front of the cocking piece, then the spring becomes a non factor.

F. Guffey

 

[Jim Watson]

I put the gagues in the magazine well and allowed them to feed like a normal shell. FYI, no the bolt was not stripped.

Not good technique. Hatcher's Notebook describes a headspace scare based on treating the gauge like a cartridge. The proper method is to strip the bolt so the striker and extractor do not interfere, ease the gauge into the clean chamber and see if the handle will go all the way down with pinkie tip pressure.

No doubt fguffey could block out the mainspring and furnish a gauge that the extractor would not contact so as to make the job simpler, but you cannot just ram a commercial gauge into the chamber. As said, you can easily force fit a No-Go the few thousandths required.

 

[Jim K]

Gee, guys, I guess I have been doing it all wrong. I do remove the firing pin and spring, but not the extractor, then I slip the gauge under the extractor and guide it into the chamber. The field gauge is the only one needed to check used rifles for safety.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

As long as it does not add resistance, I figure you are ok.

 

[Nugilum]

It’s back in one piece again. Here’s what it looks like:



Well guys I decided to embrace my inner idiot. I took it to the shooting range this afternoon. That first shot was kind of scary to take, but it worked like a charm.

Here’s what I did using Greek HXP 150gr M2 ball:
75 yards, test shot, and then three shot test run:


Next is 75 yards, five shot group:


Not bad for a 91 year old barrel on a CMP Salvage!

 

[KenWP]

I have seen something like this between a ruger and a remington. I used small based dies and cut the shells to the proper length and the reloads from the remington would not fit in the ruger but the ruger shells would fit in the remington. Figure that one out. I have a p17 that I use to unload bad reloads and it shoots almost anything into the same place on the target. And that's useing the battle sight and not the peep sight.