M870 vs. M11-87, and TFL Links

[Lone Star]

I just read Dave McCracken's links to the shotgun forums posted above as a "sticky", and it was VERY informative. I was specifically searching to see what I could find on reliably operating a Remington M870.

I had a 20 ga. a couple of years ago, and frequently experienced a shell backing out of the tube and jamming the gun. Evidently, it is necessary to push the shells WELL up into the magazine to be sure the shell catchers have engaged. This may have been all or part of my problem.

From reading the threads in the archives, I gather it is important to also shuck the pump handle really vigorously to ensure that similar jams don't occur. I may have short-stroked the pump a few times or not pumped hard enough.

I like the IDEA of the M870 a lot, and have located a nice Wingmaster grade in 12 ga. (local dealers seem to stock only Express grades in 20 ga. now). I'm thinking seriously of buying it. (This is a new gun.)

The alternative is to get a M11-87, probably also a 12 ga.

What scares me about the M1100/M11-87 is that I've heard the action bars break fairly often. Or, maybe they don't, but so many have been sold, that gunsmiths do see the problem, anyway. So many are around that if only 2-3% broke, people would note it. I had no trouble with the sole M1100 I've owned, years ago. I sold it only because I needed money at the time.

So...how likely is it that one will goof up operating the M870? Does the chance of the shell backing out of the magazine, or needing to operate the slide handle really hard ease up as the gun "wears-in" from use? I.E., is a jam less likely in a gun that's been "broken-in"?

I suspect that many of us would have fewer problems with an M11-87 we keep clean than we would due to operator error with the M870.

Has anyone here had any problems with an M11-87 that he CLEANED REGULARLY? Have the action bars broken on your gun or on one owned by an acquaintance whose word you trust? The honest gunsmiths I've asked say that 95% of the problems that people have with Remington auto shotguns is due to poor cleaning habits.

Frankly, the auto swings and points just a little better for me, and if I thought it would jam less, I'd readily pay the price difference between it and the pump gun. Providing that the action bars aren't prone to breakage...

Comments? Personal Experiences?

Thanks,

Lone Star

 

[Dave McCracken]

First off, in the 40-some years I've owned and operated 870s, the only times I've had shells tie up the shotgun the way you say is when I deliberately induced it.

Newer 870s have the Flextab, the U shaped slot in the shell carrier that eliminates the jams. Never needed it myself, but it's nice to have.

Short stroking is a software problem, and practice fixes it PDQ.

As for the 11-87, I've little experience. The 870 is all the shotgun I'll ever need, and it's as durable as a crowbar.

The 11-87 has its probs, but most are excellent and dependable shotguns. The link seems to be more fragile than the bars.

HTH....

 

[Lone Star]

Thanks, Dave! You seem more familiar with M870's than anyone I know of.

Can you briefly explain just what the Flex Tab is, and how it works?

If it's too complicated, I can ask Remington Customer Service, but they usually don't have a clue to anything I've asked, in the past. I think they just hire whoever applies. They can't even tell me when the "engraved" receiver guns were made, although it has to be current or within the past couple of years. Didn't know what I meant!

Lone Star

 

[HSMITH]

I've had plenty of problems with SEVERAL 11-87's that were very well maintained. Search this forum and the 11-87 experiences are plenty.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Don't get me started about Remservice, I talked to the same drones as thee.

The Flextab is the three sided tab in the carrier. It flexes enough to gain clearance and let the shell feed. While good technique makes this redundant for the most part, it's a nice to have. 3 870s out of the 6 here have it, though I've no plans to convert the rest.

I do regard the Flextab as absolutely necessary on 870s that may be used by less than proficient folks under emergency conditions.Agency weapons incuded.

Engraved receivers, what they call the D and F grades, predate the 870.

 

[Lone Star]

Dave-

The engraving I mean isn't the Custom Shop hand-cut stuff. It's the roll-engraved floral pattern on standard guns, pumps and autos both, within the last few years. It is much nicer than the old scroll on the M1100.

I see guns selling new in stores that have it, but the latest runs may have reverted to plain receivers.

The 2004 catalog shows it only on the small photo of the M870 in Trap form, with Monte Carlo comb.

If you have a copy of, "Shotguns and Shotgunning" by Layne Simpson, you can see it on the M11-87 he's holding on page 30. The gun by itself is on page 83, a 20 gauge. Border's and similar large booksellers stock this Krause title, which is an exceptional shotgun book.

Simpson says that he went to Uruguay and shot his 12 ga. M11-87 on ducks, a LOT of them, over several days. He wiped out the bore and wiped off the magazine tube with an oily rag every second day, and had ZERO malfunctions. But I see a disproportionate number of complaints about Remington autos, so others haven't had as positive an experience as he has.

And there has to be SOME reason why Remington took so long to make a 20 ga. 11-87, and why they still offer some versions of the M1100...

Oh: Remington told me that the flex tab is only on the 12 ga. M870's, because cops called for it. They were too cheap to put it on the 20 ga., etc.

Lone Star

 

[Lone Star]

And, while I'm "venting" (as my daughter calls it), I should add that I had to look hard to find an M870 with decent wood. Many these days have stocks that look as if Remington had salvaged the wood from fruit packing crates at the supermarket.

You'd think they'd save wood that bad for Express grade guns, not put it on the more costly Wingmaster.

I was also careful to run a small but powerful flashlight over the bluing to see if it had reddish undertones. That, at least, was okay.
Lone Star

 

[Dave McCracken]

Goes to show I don't look at many new offerings from Ilion.

As to wood, it's not just Remington. Some stuff I've seen elsewhere looks like it was salvaged from freight pallets.

 

[TrapperReady]

I've had an 870 20ga tie up on me due to a shell slipping past the catches. In my particular case, it was an older gun that was new to me. Although it appeared clean (and I had gone over it with some Hoppes myself), there was gunk that caused one of the catches to bind up. A good deep cleaning took care of that and it's been flawless since. Not bad for a gun made in 1957.

FWIW, my neighbor had a similar issue on a 20ga 1100. It tied things up even worse. We had her finish out with a different gun and I took her's home to work on. It took a little longer to clear, but when I got everything apart, the whole gun was filthy. AFAIK, she's had no further problems after I scrubbed it out completely.

My personal opinion is that well-maintained weapons, especially a known workhorse like the 870, is unlikely to be a problem. If it's clean and you are using good form and you are STILL having problems, it needs to be looked at by a smith.

As far as if I were getting one today... I'd look for a good-condition USED Wingmaster 870. Why? They're often not any (or much) more expensive than a new Express. They are typically broken-in enough to be silky-smooth from the start. I've seen and heard too many complaints about current-production guns from Remington.

The autos are a little different. Too many knowledgable folks around here seem to be hit or miss with the 1187 for me to recommend it. The 1100 seems to fare better, but IMO, there are many other good autoloaders. I've got a Beretta 391 that I like. The Benellis are more controversial, but I've had good luck with them. Winchester Super X2s (or X1s if you can find them used) have a lot of followers as well.

 

[pangris]

Greetings, all. I have an 11-87 Police model and ran it at Thunder Ranch for a shotgun class. I was very happy with the gun, but note -

After a few hundred low power birdshot rounds, it could not cycle. Loaded up with high brass 00 buck, it ran 100% - but that was not a problem a pump would have.

A quick cleaning brought it back to 100%.

My main use for shotguns is defensive, so I think the 11-87 is worth the benefits - can be operated over a bed, easier to use with one hand if injured, etc.

I am planning on getting an 11-87 for hunting/clay purposes, simply because I like using the same system.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC Remington states that the 11-87P may glitch if less than full power ammo is used. It lacks the compensating system that the other 11-87s have.

 

[Old&Slow]

Dave

FWIW:

My 11-87 P has a LE insert with the manual and it says nothing about needing full power loads, and neither does the Remington LE equipment/weapons web site.

My 11-87 P feeds the light Low Recoil Federal LE loads fine, ( over 110 so far without cleaning ) as well as the commerical 2 3/4 dram loads in Winchester, Federal and Remington.

With the widespread use of the low recoil LEO loads and concern about over - penetration, I would be surprised if that was a requirement for the weapon.

If there are any LEO`s here riding with 11-87`s, maybe they can weigh in on the subject

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, O&S. Maybe I should check with Remington.

 

[pangris]

I've never had a problem with light loads so long as the gun was clean. I haven't heard about any such requirements either...

Paul

 

[Mulliga]

Frankly, the auto swings and points just a little better for me

Get the 11-87. The single most important thing about any shotgun is how it fits you - if it points more naturally and is better balanced for you, I'd go for it.

My 20 gauge 870 only screws up when I screw up. I'm pretty rough on it (one-handed cocking, a few hundred rounds through it, lots of dry-fire practice), but I'd trust that sucker with my life.