Rockrivr1
Member
The story is pretty vague. I wonder how he "accidentally" shot himself.
http://www.local6.com/news/5572231/detail.html
http://www.local6.com/news/5572231/detail.html
Man Accidentally Kills Self Practicing Cowboy Action Shooting
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Texfire
Member
Reply to post above pointing out a duplicate thread. Deleted when threads were merged.
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AirForceShooter
Member
The Florida gun board types are all over this. The explanations given as to how this could happen tend to border on the incredible.
TWIRLING???
AFS
TWIRLING???
AFS
jdkelly
Member
...it just doesn't make sense...
Sorry FNB, it just doesn't make sense that the more experienced you are the more dangerous you are, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.
Compliancy in gun handling is not dependent on experience but rather on one's belief in their own ability, and that happens at all levels of experience.
When I said least "comfortable" I meant least able/skilled of the three shooting sports as a whole.
From what I've seen I couldn't agree with you that SASS shooters are safer then IDPA and USPSA shooters.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
Of course you will, they're in every sport!
Sorry FNB, it just doesn't make sense that the more experienced you are the more dangerous you are, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.
Compliancy in gun handling is not dependent on experience but rather on one's belief in their own ability, and that happens at all levels of experience.
When I said least "comfortable" I meant least able/skilled of the three shooting sports as a whole.
From what I've seen I couldn't agree with you that SASS shooters are safer then IDPA and USPSA shooters.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
Father Knows Best
Member
jdkelly said:
I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule. I will say that familiarity leads to complacency. Remember the infamous "I'm the only one here professional enough to carry this .40" video? Cops handle firearms every day. Some of them tend to get complacent. That leads to stupid things.
My own brother, who has been a competitive pistol shooter for 30 years and is currently an LEO and SWAT team member, killed the spare tire in the trunk of his car with an ND. He was on a SWAT training exercise and they were breaking for lunch. He cleared his Glock while standing at the trunk of his car, in preparation for stowing it. After dropping the mag and ejecting the chambered round, he squeezed the trigger. BANG! A nice little hole appeared in the carpeted floor of his trunk and deflated his spare. Apparently, he had reversed the drop-mag-and-rack-slide procedure. Thankfully, he had the pistol pointed in a safe direction when he pulled the trigger. He had done that very procedure thousands and thousands of times -- so many times he was on autopilot and not really focusing on it. Thankfully, the consequences were minor -- just a little teasing from his fellow officers and the cost of a new spare.
I'm not going to say that your average SASS shooter has better gun handling skills than your average USPSA shooter. I will say that SASS focuses more on safety than any shooting organization I have ever been around, and with generally excellent results. Despite over 100,000 per year participating in matches, many of them new to firearms and the shooting sports, there has never been a serious injury.
I am a CAS shooter, and this accident has changed my mind about shooting a single action pistol with one hand. I have seen all kinds of accidents happen in the workplace and in normal life. One thing I have learned is that if it can happen, it will happen. Many CAS shooters have experimented with their guns since learning of this accident to see if it is a likely accident. It is, IMO, and that of many other posters elsewhere.
My Rugers are 5 1/2 inch, and are muzzle heavy. A 7 1/2 inch would be even more muzzle heavy. If one simply concedes that a shooter might lose control of the grip of his firearm while performing the act of thumb cocking it, while only his fingers only are controlling the grip, then the scenario is frightfully possible. A 4 3/4 barrel is better balanced, and may be a better choice for CAS because of this.
If the hand loses control with the gun cocked and the finger in the trigger guard, the gun will often fire when the gun rotates down, with the maximum pressure on the trigger occurring when the barrel has rotated past vertical toward the shooter. This becomes even more dangerous (if that is possible) with a trigger lightened by spring kits or action work.
Small hands, inexperience, weather, etc, make the possibility of loss of control more likely.
This is a tragic accident. It should make CAS organizations concerned. IMO, they should reexamine the shooting scenarios that they use.
Personally, I have been involved in shooting SA revolvers for many years, and this scenario never occurred to me. I don't recall any written description of this type of event. I am surprised that it hasn't occurred long before, and that it is not taught as a safety problem.
Obviously, a novice shooter is more likely to have a problem of any kind, but that doesn't rule out experienced shooters from having it. Single action grips are not the most positive for grip IMO, and this could happen to anyone.
I believe that this accident will, or should, have far reaching effects.
My Rugers are 5 1/2 inch, and are muzzle heavy. A 7 1/2 inch would be even more muzzle heavy. If one simply concedes that a shooter might lose control of the grip of his firearm while performing the act of thumb cocking it, while only his fingers only are controlling the grip, then the scenario is frightfully possible. A 4 3/4 barrel is better balanced, and may be a better choice for CAS because of this.
If the hand loses control with the gun cocked and the finger in the trigger guard, the gun will often fire when the gun rotates down, with the maximum pressure on the trigger occurring when the barrel has rotated past vertical toward the shooter. This becomes even more dangerous (if that is possible) with a trigger lightened by spring kits or action work.
Small hands, inexperience, weather, etc, make the possibility of loss of control more likely.
This is a tragic accident. It should make CAS organizations concerned. IMO, they should reexamine the shooting scenarios that they use.
Personally, I have been involved in shooting SA revolvers for many years, and this scenario never occurred to me. I don't recall any written description of this type of event. I am surprised that it hasn't occurred long before, and that it is not taught as a safety problem.
Obviously, a novice shooter is more likely to have a problem of any kind, but that doesn't rule out experienced shooters from having it. Single action grips are not the most positive for grip IMO, and this could happen to anyone.
I believe that this accident will, or should, have far reaching effects.
There is also a darker option. I once responded to a call where a fella had fired a few shots "target shooting" then "accidentally" killed himself. Ultimately we discovered that he had major emotional issues but he was thoughtful enough to try and collect on an insurance policy for his kids.
Have also worked two very curious fatal car crashes that may have been suicide/insurance cases.
Very hard to prove, the guys saves some stress on the family AND they get insurance money.
Not nearly as rare as you may think!
Have also worked two very curious fatal car crashes that may have been suicide/insurance cases.
Very hard to prove, the guys saves some stress on the family AND they get insurance money.
Not nearly as rare as you may think!
Some folks see the darker side in everything. This event was so "off the wall" to eliminate that possibility IMO. It does a disservice to the victim of this event to even think of anything other than accident IMO. There are lots of less crude and painful ways to shoot yourself.
As stated, the gun will likely fire if control is lost as I described, but the point of impact is extremely unknown. The likelihood of being killed would be way too low for someone bent on suicide. Again, IMO.
As stated, the gun will likely fire if control is lost as I described, but the point of impact is extremely unknown. The likelihood of being killed would be way too low for someone bent on suicide. Again, IMO.
Texfire
Member
Gunpacker said:
I tried to replicate this with my 5-1/2" Beretta Stampedes, and it did it every time. And this is with stock triggers. Not sure what the answer is.
Tex
There are many situations and circumstances where a single-action revolver can be fired while being cocked, and particularly so if the revolver has the original Colt style lockwork. But most of them require that the trigger finger be inside the trigger guard while the cocking process is going on. The answer is to get one's finger outside the trigger guard while doing the cocking. This may slow someone down a bit, but if this is within a game context it doesn't matter.
jdkelly
Member
It seems you disagree with yourself.
It seems you disagree with yourself.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
It seems you disagree with yourself.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
Father Knows Best
Member
It seems to me that you are trying to pick a fight. At the risk of feeding a troll, I will respond.
If you read my responses again, you will see that one refers to the organization, and the other to the participants. My point is that SASS as an organization -- with a rulebook -- places a much greater emphasis on safety than any other shooting sport sanctioning body. That does NOT, however, mean that the people who take part in SASS are necessarily any safer than the people who take part in other shooting disciplines. You have a wide range in both.
Do you feel better now?
If you read my responses again, you will see that one refers to the organization, and the other to the participants. My point is that SASS as an organization -- with a rulebook -- places a much greater emphasis on safety than any other shooting sport sanctioning body. That does NOT, however, mean that the people who take part in SASS are necessarily any safer than the people who take part in other shooting disciplines. You have a wide range in both.
Do you feel better now?
Texfire
Member
Old Fuff said:
The gamers would fuss over anything that slows them down.
I understand where you are coming from, but to present an opposing viewpoint, if you remove your finger from the triggerguard while cocking a single action one-handed aren't you more likely to drop it, thereby increasing the safety hazard? That leaves you with two or three fingers that are holding the grip while the index finger lays down the side and the thumb cocks the hammer. Seems like that's asking alot of manual dexderity.
Personally, I am really weak with my right hand and am unlikely to try shooting gunfighter, or one-handed with either hand for that matter. But I'm not all people and we run smack dab into the conflict between collective safety versus individual responsibility. You have to have a set of common rules for the safety of the group, but when does the responsibility of the individual to know their limitations kick in?
Tex
First of all, I agree with your views regarding using both hands on one gun.
If I warp my 3 lower fingers around the handle, with my trigger finger along side of the trigger guard, I have no problem cocking a conventional size S.A. revolver. While I have done the shoot-two-revolver-at-the-same-time trick, I don't do it very often, and prefer to do this with double-action guns, because they are easier to hold on to.
In my view (which doesn't mean much) "trick" shooting and questionable stunts shouldn't be part of CAS. This is a game that uses live ammunition and people with very varied levels of gun-handling skill. Also, from a historical perspective, very few of the 19th century gun fighters did this sort of thing.
How SASS handles the issue will be up to them.
Edited to add: If you have your finger outside of the trigger guard while using a six-gun with a transfer bar safety, you may lose control of the revolver or even drop it, but the safety will prevent a discharge, so long as the trigger isn't being held back. Food for thought.
If I warp my 3 lower fingers around the handle, with my trigger finger along side of the trigger guard, I have no problem cocking a conventional size S.A. revolver. While I have done the shoot-two-revolver-at-the-same-time trick, I don't do it very often, and prefer to do this with double-action guns, because they are easier to hold on to.
In my view (which doesn't mean much) "trick" shooting and questionable stunts shouldn't be part of CAS. This is a game that uses live ammunition and people with very varied levels of gun-handling skill. Also, from a historical perspective, very few of the 19th century gun fighters did this sort of thing.
How SASS handles the issue will be up to them.
Edited to add: If you have your finger outside of the trigger guard while using a six-gun with a transfer bar safety, you may lose control of the revolver or even drop it, but the safety will prevent a discharge, so long as the trigger isn't being held back. Food for thought.
jdkelly
Member
Your quote above implies that you feel less safe at shooting events other then SASS.
Your quote below implies that SASS shooters are no more safe then IDPA or USPSA shooters.
So if the shooters at a SASS, IDPA or USPAS event all pose an equal danger, as implied in your 2nd quote, then logic would seem to demand that something other then the shooting portion of the events scares you, or your statements are in conflict.
Yet you say you feel safer at SASS events as stated in your quote at the top of this post, even though SASS shooters are no more safe. If there is no greater danger at one event, then you're no safer at the other event.
I'm no more a troll then you are stupid, I assume that neither of discriptions describe either of us. So lets not call each other names.
I'm pointing out a logic error in your conflicting statements. And it's as simple as this:
If as you said "I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule" then by your own words you are at least as safe at IDPA or USPSA events then you are at a SASS event.
Yes, much better thank you.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
Father Knows Best
Member
Sheesh. :banghead:
omnivore75
Member
This is just one of those things. I honestly try to be as careful with any weapon as I possibly can because I was almost killed by an accidental discharge in 95. 12GA 000 buck 3 in mag. BOOM right beside my freakin ear.
I could'nt hear for a week. Would have literally blown my head off and left a bloody stump if it had been 2 in over and I was being as careful then as I am now. Just an accident. Think about all the times you have picked up a weapon and crossed ur body or abdomen in some part with the muzzle. Sure we all try to avoid it keep our fingers out of trigger guard, keep weapon pionted in safe direction, be very careful on the draw, etc., etc. People are people and guns are mechanical physical objects and sometimes we both screw up and tragedy occurrs, but thats part of life. Many people have died doing what they love to do and it is sad, but would it be better if the person never leaves the house and dies alone never having done the tings they wanted to do? I don't think so.
I could'nt hear for a week. Would have literally blown my head off and left a bloody stump if it had been 2 in over and I was being as careful then as I am now. Just an accident. Think about all the times you have picked up a weapon and crossed ur body or abdomen in some part with the muzzle. Sure we all try to avoid it keep our fingers out of trigger guard, keep weapon pionted in safe direction, be very careful on the draw, etc., etc. People are people and guns are mechanical physical objects and sometimes we both screw up and tragedy occurrs, but thats part of life. Many people have died doing what they love to do and it is sad, but would it be better if the person never leaves the house and dies alone never having done the tings they wanted to do? I don't think so.jdkelly
Member
Hope it helps.
jdkelly
Link to article about shooting
Here is a link to the article in todays Kingsport Times News ( Kingsport TN )about Chad's death. He just moved to Florida two weeks ago to take a new job. He was a lifetime NRA member and taught classes on reloading at Cherokee Rod and Gun Club for some time before his recent move.
www.timesnews.net/article.dna?_StoryID=3582011
Here is a link to the article in todays Kingsport Times News ( Kingsport TN )about Chad's death. He just moved to Florida two weeks ago to take a new job. He was a lifetime NRA member and taught classes on reloading at Cherokee Rod and Gun Club for some time before his recent move.
www.timesnews.net/article.dna?_StoryID=3582011
FWIW, I was reminded by a post on the SASSwire of another CAS shooter that died a year or two ago that was out shooting alone. He was found dead, I believe with a wound in his abdomen. He was a "Duelist" shooter, and may have been practicing that scenario. I think that his obituary said that no one had any idea of what had happened. I do know that speculation of his revolver spinning and going off accidentally was not mentioned. I guess that a lot of folks may have speculated that he committed suicide, but no one had a reason why.
IMO, this may have been at least the second death caused by this type of accident. As I stated earlier, this accident SHOULD have far reaching impact. Safety in handgun use has to take this into account forever more, IMO.
I plan to check out my other firearms to see if they too are candidates for this type of thing. Especially my 6 in revolvers. I think that a grip heavy gun is far less likely to be a problem, but even a DA revolver gets cocked by some. I usually shoot only DA, but my family and everyone that I speak to of gun safety will be informed of this possibility.
I remain amazed that this has not become known as a highly dangerous problem sooner. Folks been shooting these things since 1836. Even earlier single shot pistols would be suspect.
IMO, this may have been at least the second death caused by this type of accident. As I stated earlier, this accident SHOULD have far reaching impact. Safety in handgun use has to take this into account forever more, IMO.
I plan to check out my other firearms to see if they too are candidates for this type of thing. Especially my 6 in revolvers. I think that a grip heavy gun is far less likely to be a problem, but even a DA revolver gets cocked by some. I usually shoot only DA, but my family and everyone that I speak to of gun safety will be informed of this possibility.
I remain amazed that this has not become known as a highly dangerous problem sooner. Folks been shooting these things since 1836. Even earlier single shot pistols would be suspect.
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