Maximum Penetration .38 Special Load

[.455_Hunter]

Greetings,

One of my primary CCW guns is a S&W Model 60 (last model in .38 only).

My general purpose load is the new Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot +P.

This is a great urban load, designed to stop gangbangers at the local 7-11 without excessive under or overpenetration in the standard human torso.

My concern is when my wife and I go hiking (Colorado Front Range Open Space), I would like a round with greater penetration than the 12"-15" of the Gold Dot.

Our possible threats while hiking are: people, dogs, deer, mtn. lions and bears (rare).

Some loads I am considering:

1. Winchester 158 gr. LSWC-HP +P (FBI load- current production)
2. Winchester 158 gr. JSP (Disc. Q-load- about 200 fpe from my 60- I have 75 rounds))
3. Cor-Bon 158 gr. LSWC-HP +P (Disc. load- I have 20 rounds)
4. Winchester 147 gr. JHP +P (Disc. "Subsonic" load- I have 50 rounds)
5. Remmington 158 LSWC +P (current production- hard to find)
6. Speer 158 gr. TMJ +P (current production- about 200 fpe from my 60- small diameter meplat)
7. Fiochii 158 gr. FMJ (current production- not listed +P, but HOT - about 260 fpe from my 60- round nose)
8. ??????????????????????

What I would love is that a small ammo company (Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, etc.) would offer a .38 special +P load that featured a 180-200 gr. hard cast LFP bullet (similar to Federal's 180 gr. 357 Mag. Cast-Core load) at about 850 to 900 fps out of my 60.

Please post your comments on this ammo choice/sources.

If your response would be "get a bigger gun", please refrain and limit your comments as if .38 special was the only caliber out there. I don't need to be told to run out and by a 4" 629.

Thanks,

Hunter

 

[newfalguy101]

Well a bigger gun will handle a more potent cartridge!!

Personally I think I would go with pretty much any manufacturer's 158 +P SWCHP.

That loading has worked for thousands of shooters for dozens of years.

I would buy probably the least expensive or whatever brand floats your boat as I dont think there's going to be a plug nickles difference from company to company.

The 180gr load you are wanting is already available, with the case about 1/8 inch longer

 

[only1asterisk]

I think that your current carry load would be more than adequate. I believe that by far and away the most dangerous animals in the woods are human with feral dogs coming in a distant second. While there are cats and bears and deer (elk even) running about, I think being better prepared for the more likely threat more than offsets any advantage you might gain trying to adjust your carry load to somewhat less inadequately handle a chance encounter with a bear.

For what you describe I would use the Remington +P 158 grain SWC. I think it will provide the straightest, most predictable penetration of loads you listed.


David

 

[RyanM]

Most 158 gr LHPs penetrate in the 12 to 15 inch range also, when they expand. Remingtons seem to be the most reliable expanders. If you really need extra penetration, the Fiocchi sounds like the best bet to me. Not much chance of a .38 penetrating a bear's head no matter what the bullet shape.

 

[only1asterisk]

RyanM,

The Fiocchi would probably penetrate best in a ballistic gelatin block, but the roundnose profile makes it susceptible to deflection when striking something solid like bone.

David

 

[grimjaw]

I use the Fiocchi 158gr FMJ as a practice load, but I'd carry 158gr JHP or LSWCHP in a .38, regardless of the environment. If I was worried about something other than humans, I hope I'd be able to open carry a .357. YMMV.

jmm

 

[cookekdjr]

The November 2005 issue of Combat Handguns featured an article "favorite loads in the .38 snub".
The Federal 158gr +p LSWC-HP out-penetrated every load by a wide margin. I believe it went 21.5" in gelatin covered in four layers of denim. Nothing, including three flavors of Corbon, came close.
Anything heavier and more powerful would be too powerful for such a small gun. Just not practical.
By the way, I carry a S&W 36 (and I'm looking for a 60 to replace it). The Federal load (or its Remington equivilant) is what I carry.
Good luck,

David

 

[Moonclip]

When I want 38spl extreme penetration(an oxymoron?), I use Win 130gr FMJ or if I can locate a foreign brand like Fiocchi or S&B with a FMJ bullet I'll use that. I read once RWS/Geco had a 38 designed for penetration and in the old days I think REM and/or Win marketed a metal point or metal piercing load.

 

[tbeb]

Another member talked about the .38 special +P Federal 158 gr. LSWCHP penetrating 21.5" of gelatin covered by 4 layers of denim, in an article he saw in Combat Handguns. I read another test with the same load from a short barrel and gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim penetrating 18.25 inches. I don't know if the .38 special +P Remington 158 gr. LSWC will beat that but it would be my choice for deep penetration of the loads you mentioned.

 

[Dr.Rob]

FMJ is bad choice in any .38... the 158gr +p Federal is the way to go.

 

[AStone]

I believe that by far and away the most dangerous animals in the woods are human with feral dogs coming in a distant second.

+ 17.

Or is that + 135?

 

[Mad Chemist]

Wadcutters or SWC in the country HP in the city.
Mine are just .44spl instead of .38spl.

 

[cookekdjr]

When I want 38spl extreme penetration(an oxymoron?), I use Win 130gr FMJ or if I can locate a foreign brand like Fiocchi or S&B with a FMJ bullet I'll use that. I read once RWS/Geco had a 38 designed for penetration and in the old days I think REM and/or Win marketed a metal point or metal piercing load.

Hi moonclip. The LSWC-HP doesn't expand much. The key to its penetration success seems to be the weight (158gr) at a decent velocity. Reducing the slug weight substantially reduced penetration in every test I've seen, even when fired at much higher velocities.
If you want to go with fmj (not a bad idea since none of the best loads expand much anyway) I'd go with the S&B you mentioned. It has both +p velocity and 158gr weight.
-David

 

[mtnbkr]

Dunno if there's any out there, but I'd look for a 158gr SWC (no HP) at +P pressures.

If you handload, you could probably work up a load using a good hardcast 158gr SWC and push the velocities to the limit, but I wouldn't shoot many of them.

If you don't handload, this could be a good excuse to start. You could start as easily as a Lee Loader for 38special and some Alliant 2400 or Unique. Power Pistol might be a good alternative since it's a tad slower than Unique, but not as slow as 2400. It's also designed for smaller cases and shorter barrels. I'm using PP for some mild 357mag loads (closer to a 38 +P+) and have been happy. A scale and a powder trickler would round out your kit and may even fit in a fanny pack (well, the scale won't). If you don't like the idea of the Lee Loader, Lee's hand press (I've used it, it works well) or the Lyman hand press would be other compact alternatives.

Chris

 

[Gordon]

If you cast bullets(or buy some hard ones like Lazer Cast) you can cast up some hard-as-hillaries-heart Keith 173 grain flat points. A + p load of Unique will get 850fps in that gun , which would be absolute maximum! Use a chrony! That load will punch a black bears head.

 

[cookekdjr]

Dunno if there's any out there, but I'd look for a 158gr SWC (no HP) at +P pressures...
Chris

Georgia Arms makes a 158gr SWC +p at a pretty cheap price.
-David

 

[mtnbkr]

Georgia Arms makes a 158gr SWC +p at a pretty cheap price.
-David

I've been soured on Georgia Arms ever since that batch of 45Colt my dad bought from them that failed to fire just about every other round. This was in a gun that has been 100% reliable with everything else. GA wasn't too helpful in resolving the issue.

Chris

 

[only1asterisk]

The Remington load discussed above (R38S14) is a SWC with no hollow point. It is swaged and not so hard a heat treated cast bullet, but of the choices above, the best compromise. Zero once loaded +P 158 grain SWC's and Roze Distribution list them at 890 FPS and $9.50 a box. I imagine these are swaged as well, but cost 1/2 of the Remington load.

David

 

[only1asterisk]

If you could load your own I think Beartooth makes a 160 grain hard cast pill you could load to 875-900 fps with Bluedot. This would come close to as good as it gets. You could use a slightly heavier bullet with smaller meplat and may get slightly more penetration, but I don't thing the trade is worth it.


David

 

[sthomper]

FMJ is bad choice in any .38..

why????

isnt the .38 spl a lower powered round than many others??? does the fmj .38 spl tend to fragment less than the .38 spl hp offereings??? if the hp bullets do indeed tend to fragment more often would that reduce mass and momentum (more momentum, more force needed to stop moving object, potentially less penetration...layered clothing and barriers?)?

do the fmj bullets in the 38 spl tend to penetrate further than 38 hp thus creating a greater chance for exit wound??? two cavities plus organ damage via passing through a torso????

would missing a target all together provide a greater chance of hitting a bystander than over penetration?? especially in a .38 spl???

 

[LawofThirds]

FMJ is a poor stopping choice because it tends to deflect off bone (you know, like ribs around the bits you want to hit), makes a .357 sized entrance and exit and a .357 tunnel between two holes and is a poor shape for deep bone breaking penetration.

A semi-wadcutter or flat nosed lead design will still expand some and will provide very deep penetration that will "catch" on bones and shatter them rather than deflecting off of them. If you're not going to use a hollow point (which if constructed properly, will not "shatter" and at worst is a SWC or LFN through heavy fabric), why use the least effective bullet shape available?

Look at the very very large calibers used for dangerous game. Most use very flat faced bullets for maximum penetration/destruction.

It's a shame that buffalo bore doesn't offer a LFN in .38 +p, it'd blow the others out of the water.

 

[shockwave]

If you really need extra penetration, the Fiocchi sounds like the best bet to me.

I've been very impressed with Fiocchi ammo and I'll give them the nod here. What isn't clear to me is the emphasis on penetration. For me, it's all about expansion. I want that perfect Corbon ragged star-petal shape happily spinning and buzz-sawing through my targets. For expansion, go with the Corbon.

Of course, it should be said that almost any ammo you bring will get the job done, and the important thing is to have enough of it, and have your weapon at close hand so it's there if you need it. You don't often hear of an armed hiker who didn't survive because his ammo was insufficient to counter the threat.

 

[rbernie]

Given how many factory loads have changed in the five years since this thread was opened (especially with the growing prevalence of bonded bullet designs), I'd recommend a new thread on the topic if y'all want to chat about it.