Meat damage? = Nonsense?

[labgrade]

I have shot deer, antelope, elk with all sorts of bullets & out of various calibers & have yet to see any "meat damage" other than what one would expect to see from the normal bullet path & that has been very minimal.

'Course, too, I've always picked my shots (mostly) so that I get to use all that I shoot.

Never used one of these Uber-Magnums with a lighter-than-caliber bullet so it explodes on impact either ....

A standard caliber, using standard weight & properly constructed bullets with an ethical shot & I've just never seen it.

BTW, I think I've thrown away more meat due to being air-dried from hanging than any meat damage from a bullet's path.

Comments?

 

[Dr.Rob]

I'b mostly agree. With a well placed shot behind the shoulder, meat damage is minimal.

It's the "Texas Heart Shot" through the front shoulder of an antelope with a 7mm Magnum that will ruin a lot of meat. Im pretty sure my butcher throws out the "bloodshot" or jellied meat around the entrance and exit wounds.

There is a tendency among new hunters to overgun, and improperly clean their kills in the field.

A well placed shot and 5 gallons of water beats a Texas gut shot with a belted magnum any day. (According to my butcher.)

 

[MLC]

I hit a whitetail at under 100 yards with a 150g Nosler BT out of a 20" 308.
There was a lot of bloodshot meat in the shoulder area but the bullet passed on through the lungs and aorta.
I can imagine how that bullet at close range with a marginal shot would've torn up the deer.
At a similar range I found less bloodshot tissue using a Sierra 165G Spitzer.
But as you said, more meat is lost drying on the ribs than from the entry and exit.

 

[labgrade]

No doubt I've thrown away a rib or two - depending on circumstances, I would never have packed out any ribs anyway (elk way back), & even with very close-in high shoulder shots on elk with a proper bullet, I've never wasted meat, per se.

"There is a tendency among new hunters to overgun, and improperly clean their kills in the field."

I think the tendency is for way too many "hunters" to use this same method = use too much for too little, & not enough for the latter. I heartily agree, Doctor.

 

[HSMITH]

You guys have never seen a flatlander shoulder shoot an elk with a 300 super mangler and the cheapest ammo he could find or you would know meat damage. Especially when it gets up and he shoots it in the arse 3 times. I've seen elk blown to bits, less than 40 pounds of meat left blown to bits

 

[labgrade]

HSMITH,

That's the whole point of this = proper bullet AND proper placement , with the proper hunting skills & there's no need at all for the uber-magnun-thing anyway.

Way too many folks're are asking about "what gun for this," when they should be asking about to actually hunt the critters they're after.

Recent thread in Rifles got me on this "rant," = "I've got a 7-08/should I get a .25-06 for whitetails" thread .....

Sheesh! if you can't do a whitetail with a 7-08, you've likely no business out there with a .25-06 anyway.

 

[Matt G]

Shoot the shoulder, and you'll lose not more than a couple of pounds of stringy, sinewy meat, will anchor the deer, and will likely kill it instantly:

(My current shot for minimal meat damage, high percentage of dropping/anchoring the deer, borrowed shamelessly from my post in Ankeny's Crippled Deer/Low Percentage Shot Ratio thread.)

 

[HSMITH]

labgrade, I've never had a problem with a lot of meat damage myself at all. I misread your intention.

I would also like to point out that a 338 with a good 250 grainer or a 375 with a good 270-300 grain bullet will damage less meat on a marginal shot or a miss than a 300 ultra smokin hot fast mangler magnum shooting ANY bullet . Big guns aren't bad, they don't hurt much more if any than the good old -06 with 180 grain quality bullets when employed properly.

 

[labgrade]

HSMITH,

I never misread your intentions = just merly expanding on your excellent post.

But MattG, your pix doesn't impy a "best hit" by any means, & for many reasons, I'd pick a very differrent shot, for the same reasons you presented it.

Your shot pretty much destoys some shoulder meat, etc. & has absolutely nothing to do with a clean kill - the same can be easily done with a much lower, & to the right hit (the heart), or further back (through the lungs = without the shoulder meat-loss)

Thing is, if we aren't exact enough in our hunting skills - en especial, we aren't capable enough to use "enough gun" to make up for the difference.

& that's the whole point.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I would also like to point out that a 338 with a good 250 grainer or a 375 with a good 270-300 grain bullet will damage less meat on a marginal shot or a miss than a 300 ultra smokin hot fast mangler magnum shooting ANY bullet .

I love to hunt with my .375 and now my .470NE. laymen will invariably make this comment "Jeez that thing must blow a critter to smitheriens".

The .375H&H does less meat damage as far as bruising and bloodshot meat goes than a .25-06. The .470 does even less. Briusing and meat damage is a function of hydraulic shock which is a direct result of bullet velocity and rapid expansion. It has nothing to do with diameter and weight untill you start pushing that weight at stupid velocity which invariably end up giving poor penetration but that is the subject for another thread.

Now here's an interesting concept. I experimented with this last season a little. Using very tough bullets like barnes X or Swift out of a .300eargasplitenthunderboomer.

In the past I've seen the gruesome results of your typical .300 using soft bullets. the rib cage and front shoulder looking like a small handgernade went off in them.

last year a wound up with an R-93 synthetic in .300Weatherby. Not really my style but a guy owed me a bunch of money and couldn't pay so he gave me this rifle instead. I was a intrigued with the silly little thing as it is short and light, I just had to play with it a bit. I shot a whitetail a Muley and a 5X5 bull elk with it. I load a 180gr X at about 3000 fps. The meat damage on the deer was nearly nill with a behind the shoulder shot same with the elk. The little 180gr x bullets went in and out with minimal fuss and very little damage around the hole the exits had a 2 inch or so diameter bruise around them.

Now here is interesting thing. For mule deer I loaded a swift sirocco at about 3100 FPS. Why? I don't know just a wild hair I guess plus I was having illusions about doing some long distance cross canyon macho man deer shooting. In short I developed an acute case of magnumitis last deer season.... So shoot me. As it turned out I nailed a nice muley at 209yards quartering on to me. I hit him on the point of the on shoulder square on the humorus bone. (I was aiming a little left trying to slip one through his throat into the vitals. At the shot I heard the distinctive crack of a bullet on bone the deer needless to say he didn't go far.

What really surprised me was the lack of bruising. the bullet stayed together very well and created a nice path through the shoulder to the vitals.

So maybe there is something to these bonded core bullets. In anycase the rifle should make a fantastic mountain gun as it is very handy. But I've gone to 200gr bullets at around 2800fps as they are more comfortable to shoot darn near as flat given the awesome BC with the 200gr .308 bullet not to mention the great SD and they provide a nice balance of knockdown and flat tajectory. That is the only place in which I believe the .300's have a slight yet academic advantage over the 06.

I see no reason to go out and get a thunderzappinloudenboomer. Nor am I suggesting that you do. I just though you guys may find this interesting. I still love my .308's and .375's for deer and elk. But for some reason every now and then the immature magnum geek virus rises from my past and demands to be placated before receding into my spine and laying dorment for the next decade or so. Please forgive me.......

In closing I will offer that high velocity demands hard well constructed bullets.

 

[Citadel99]

FWIW, won't a neck shot do the trick without causing damage to meat?

Mark

 

[cooch]

Well seeing as I DO just happen to have a .25/06....

I'm currently loading 75grain V-Max at warp-factor 9.8 for a spare varmint rifle, but intend taking into pig country later on. With that in mind, I've acquired a box of 115 Grain Nolser BTs.

Any other suggestions for penetration on tough(er) critters with this cartridge?

Cheers............ Cooch

 

[labgrade]

H&H =

 

[Matt G]

FWIW, won't a neck shot do the trick without causing damage to meat?

Nope. Some of the best meat on the deer is on the neck.

 

[lycanthrope]

160gr Nosler Partition from my 7mm STW........


Graphic Pic


That's the entrance hole. No exit.

I regularly use 140gr CT Ballistic Tips and they have never done this. Goes against what the gun rags report, but it's been my experience

 

[Kurt S.]

FWIW, won't a neck shot do the trick without causing damage to meat?

Citadel, that's a whole 'nother thread right there. Myself, I was taught that a neck shot on a deer where possible was the quickest, cleanest kill- clean also in the sense that the least amount of meat was wasted. The exception was with a trophy quality buck where you didn't want to risk ruining the cape for a good mount.

Neck shots have worked for me. But I have always shot a lot of does and scrawny little spikes that don't have much other than a couple of pounds of chili meat on the neck. And believe me, I love venison and would not care to waste any that I could avoid wasting.

But to get back on topic, I shot a little doe down around Del Rio with a 120 grain PSP out of my .25-06 at less than 50 feet one time. Made a pretty big mess, and didn't exit! That's the only time I've ever seen that happen on a neck shot.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Any other suggestions for penetration on tough(er) critters with this cartridge?

Cooch

I don't know what you have available down under as far as reloading and bullet availability. But if you can get your hands on some 120gr barnes x you'd have a penetrater.

Any time you mix BT and high velocity you've got a potential penetration problem.

160gr Nosler Partition from my 7mm STW........

Lycanthrope,

Awhile back there was a thread about Nosler PT's and I observed that I've not yet seen a Nosler PT that wouldn't shed it's core and sperate at any kind of higher velocity after impacting bone. Nosler PT's are not tough enough to handle 3000 FPM impacts infact they won't even handle 2700FPS impacts for the most part. Of course I was told that I was full of it. I guess you've had the same experience???

Maybe that's why Nosler came out with the partition gold????Do ya think!

There is no bullet on the market that penetrates and expands as well as a Barnes or the failsafe (A branes wanna be copy) There is also no bullet on the market that copper fouls like a stinking Barnes..

 

[lycanthrope]

H&H,

You speaketh the truth. The Barnes is nearly armor piercing, but will petal. 140's in STW have went through moose.

The Fail Safe's won't group under an inch in my gun and that's not good enough. With the steel core, I don't think they are cocentric.

If I wanted penetration I'd use a Barnes XLC. For everything that isn't big enough to step on me I use the Combined Tech Ballistic Tips. Everyone says the 140's should grenade at nearly 3500fps, but they punch nice little quarter to fifty cent piece exit holes and go right through deer.

The 160 Partition was at 3200fps in the pic. Go figure.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Wonder bullets don't beat a bonded core bullet.

Trust me, I can drop three Bronze points through a dime off the bench, but when that 150gr pill gets moving at 2900 fps the result was usually a clean kill with a large exit wound (2 in across or so).

Then again, using a 180 gr version of this bullet at 2700 fps I had a complete failure. The animal was DRT, but the bullet blew up on impact at a shot of 50 yards or less. The bullet dissapeared. Vaporized. NOTHING entered the chest cavity. Shock alone killed the animal which had a nicely placed behind the shoulder shot, resulting in a nasty fist-sized bloody spot and seven ribs split laterally down the side of the animal (my guess is that was the path the bronze point took). I am REALLY glad I never shot an elk with that load. That result was on was an antelope!

A good premium softnose from ANY major MFG would have poked a 30 cal hole right through both of her lungs. And she still would have been dead in a couple of steps.

I agree with Labgrade on your diagram.. if you know where the heart and lungs meet why are you shooting into the shoulder away from them? Down and to the right is a kill shot, right alone is both lungs.

Pick your shot, take your time.

Wonder bullets and Megamagnums waste a lot more meat than shot placement.

 

[Matt G]

Aah, got the lungs a bit far back in the quick diagram. Anything forward of them is thoracic cavity, which means lung damage, bleedout, and no O2.

Worst meat damage I ever caused, I made an ill-advised shot at a running buck that leapt a fence just as I fired. Little did I know, I missed him clean. Still, I thought I'd wounded him, so I fired at a REALLY fast-running buck at about 150 yards, as he quartered away. Not thinking to lead him, I held dead-on, and got to see what a 100g Sierra SP spitzer from a .257 Rbts would do to the right ham of a medium-sized 7 pt. The bullet pushed through the ham, destroying all but about a pound of it, went through the gut, liver, and diaphragm, and stopped against the sternum. I kept that bullet for years (it retained about 82 grains, IIRC). It was only that the bullet was so well-matched to the load (MV= ~2850 fps) that the buck was recovered. (He made it about 25 yards after the second shot.)

The meat damage was really sad, I have to admit. (Note: I fully acknowledge that it was a dumb shot to take. I was an inexperienced teenager, and it was my first buck.) But I have to tell you-- when I found him piled up in that bush, I was ecstatic.
Two things I learned from that occasion:

• Use a good bullet that will penetrate.
• Better to lose a ham, than the deer.

 

[Black Snowman]

Sorry to resurect such an old thread but I had to relate my one hunting experiance since I thought it was relevant.

The only time I've gone hunting was with a .340 Wby Mag and I took a large white-tail. Pefrect rear 3/4 shot uphill with a backstop at about 100 yards. The shot went through both lungs, the heart and into the center of the far shoulderblade.

The shoulder hit disinigrated the bone and ruined several pounds of good meat The deer didn't suffer though. Immidiately collapsed, kicked three times and was done.

Used a factory 200 gr Nosler Partition round which was recovered just under the skin on the far side of of the shoulder. 1st time my hunting partner, who had been doing for over 40 years, had ever seen a recovered bullet. It was mushroomed back to the partition and lost about 1/3 of it's weight. All energy expended from such a powerful round did horrific damage.

In contrast my friend who was also on his first hunt was using a Marlin lever gun in .44 Mag with Federal Premium hunting loads. His shot was taken at about 85 yards. His rounds expanded instantly on impact and removed a 1" or so diameter section all the way from one side of the dear to the other.

Misjudging distance he held a little high and the 1st shot went through the spine and surrounding tissue, blasted clear through and out the other side plowing it's way though about 6" of muscle and bone. 2nd shot was clean but I don't remember exactly where. Although the path was harder to trace it did instantly end the suffering of the animal without any further meat damage.

A .338 was plenty of gun, in this case probably too much but being my 1st hunt I thought the margin for an incorrectly placed or bad shot would be good. Turns out I probably could have taken it with a .223 or .243 with that shot.

Also turns out that the .44 Mag was plenty of gun through in the dense woods of Wisconsin where short shots are the norm. Out of the Marlin we later chronoe'd the rounds at about 1800 FPS. I believe they were 240 gr HP but I'm not positive. It was years ago.

 

[mustanger98]

Whereas the crosshairs are kinda low for a heart/lower-lung shot, I'd place them a mite higher for a upper-lung/spinal shot. Everything close around the wound channel takes a shock. The spine is broke and the lungs fill up with blood. According to several accounts by my Daddy and Elmer Keith and others, the deer is anchored and finished fast.

Oh, and 150gr and 170gr .30-30's plenty out to 150yds with proper bullet placement. Refer to this other thread on this hunting forum.

 

[twoblink]

It depends, if you are asian like me, then ANYTHING is considered meat damage..

BTW, my friend almost fell to the floor when she found out the deer tendons she's feeding her dogs after the field dressing, goes for $26/lb in the chinese supermarkets!!!

I eat everything on the animal, pretty much no exceptions.. So anything is meat damage. A nice shoulder shot will keep it to a minimum... also, tip choice plays so much into it...

 

[NRA4LIFE]

This isn't a "toot my own horn" post, but I somehow managed to make what I would consider the perfect shot on a deer last fall. (I don't count head shots because IMO it should not be attempted in 99.9% of all situations). This was a combination of several things, the most important being that the mule deer I killed was standing quartering away from me. The shot came in behind the left shoulder, through both lungs and exited just in front of the right shoulder. Neither front shoulder was even nicked. I was shooting a .243 and the entry and exit wounds were relatively small. Except for a very small amount of mostly useless meat anyway, there was almost no meat damage. Took 3 of us to pack out that monster.

 

[JShirley]

A shoulder shot with a standard 300-grain .45-70 HP won't do much damage to the meat, but that deer will go down.

I think I had a tie for least damage to meat on two of the shots I made last year. The first (first deer of the season), was a Remington Reduced Recoil slug to the neck, just behind the head of a nice running doe. Second extremely-little-damage to meat shot was a broadside heart shot taken at 100 meters on a small buck. The buck ran for about 35 yards, and dropped. Since I was using the armor-piercing elk round, a .308 Fail-Safe 180-grain, there was a tiny entrance hole, and a barely larger exit.

If you use this round, only take GREAT shots with it on deer!

John