model 1869 sharps ? info

[jimad]

i inherited a few sharps rifles. one is a 50 cal. carbine that was used by a relative in the civil war. next is a model 1874 like was used in the movie. the third i have questions about. the serial # is c,4436. built by sharps rifle co., bridgeport conn. the barrel is 45 caliber and 28" long and octagonal-13/16 across. it has two triggers. .stamped on it is "old reliable" and "long range 90". the sight says r.s. lawrence, patented feb. 15, 1869. the lock plate is about 3/8" thick and marked with c. sharps, pat. oct. 5, 1852. the butt plate is brass and sharply curved. it is also lighter than the model 1874. this has the 28" by 13/16" barrel and weighs 8#. the model 1874 has a 30" by 15/16" barrel and weighs 10#. any idea about i have? the butt plate is so curved that i makes me think it might have been for a woman. thanks for any replies.

jim

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Welcome!

Sounds like you inherited some nice firearms that have an iconic status.

The gun shown looks to be a conversion Sharps with the '59 lock contoured for the '74 hammer. Cartridge from the percussion model.
I have never seen one with a 'Black Powder' butt (that is not a standard rifle butt configuration), much less made of brass, nor have
I seen one with an Old Reliable barrel so marked (caliber? description on the side flat).
How does the length pull measure against your '74?
How do the lands and grooves of the two guns compare?

A photo similar to the 4th one that is looking down on the top of the breech to show
the lockplate thickness and the top barrel flat immediately ahead of the receiver (there is no caliber marking in this area?)
would be handy.
The wood fit looks original to me.

With that butt (designed to be held on the upper arm rather than the shoulder) on that rifle, you'll know for sure when it goes off
I have 45-70, 90 and 110 brass, as well as 40-90 BN if you need some.

All of my Sharps reference books were lost a few years back, so I can be of no help dating the
action. The conversions were on the scene during the heyday of buffalo hunting, so there is a chance
the serial will be identified by number as to shipping location.
There will be others along who can be of more help, but I'm sure hoping my post has earned
a bunch of posts from you with lots of photos of the '74 and the conversion carbine.

Thanks for sharing, JT

 

[jimad]

Welcome!

Sounds like you inherited some nice firearms that have an iconic status.
thx for the info. i will take some more pics. the 45 caliber is on the top and the long range is on the side. the 90 after the " long rifle" seems to be added-larger font.

jim
The gun shown looks to be a conversion Sharps with the '59 lock contoured for the '74 hammer. Cartridge from the percussion model.
I have never seen one with a 'Black Powder' butt (that is not a standard rifle butt configuration), much less made of brass, nor have
I seen one with an Old Reliable barrel so marked (caliber? description on the side flat).
How does the length pull measure against your '74?
How do the lands and grooves of the two guns compare?

A photo similar to the 4th one that is looking down on the top of the breech to show
the lockplate thickness and the top barrel flat immediately ahead of the receiver (there is no caliber marking in this area?)
would be handy.
The wood fit looks original to me.

With that butt (designed to be held on the upper arm rather than the shoulder) on that rifle, you'll know for sure when it goes off
I have 45-70, 90 and 110 brass, as well as 40-90 BN if you need some.

All of my Sharps reference books were lost a few years back, so I can be of no help dating the
action. The conversions were on the scene during the heyday of buffalo hunting, so there is a chance
the serial will be identified by number as to shipping location.
There will be others along who can be of more help, but I'm sure hoping my post has earned
a bunch of posts from you with lots of photos of the '74 and the conversion carbine.

Thanks for sharing, JT

 

[jimad]

here are some more pics.first are of the 45 caliber lock plate. then the carbine and then the mod 74.

jim

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Where I work, the internet and wi-fi are still more than a few years out,
so just now getting to see the photos you shared.
Have you determined caliber (case length) on the rifles yet?
Melted beeswax and a bore diameter wooden dowel make a good 'poor man's' chamber cast.
If the chambers are for a straight case, a wooden dowel to catch the front of the chamber
for measuring would probably work.

My .02 would be to stick to black powder for shooting in the conversion rifle.
although duplexing with 5% 4759 or 5744 is a good way to keep a bore
with a bit of pitting shooting for group longer.
One may never figure out the logic of the brass 'arm gun' butt.
The 'Long Range 90' is really curious as well. The 45-90 from Winchester was a case
length close copy of the Sharp's 2 4/10" case, but Winchester did not introduce it until 1886 which
was after Sharp's was out of business.
Looking forward to hearing the actual case length on this one.

Is the carbine barrel a lined three groove bore or original percussion rifled?
All of mine have been lined and all were good shooters in spite of very heavy triggers.
I'd shoot it with the above recommendation.

Have to say that I would not recommend shooting the '74 at all until I was able to get
with a gunsmith concerning the broken/welded (my take from the photo) upper tang.
Unfortunately, it looks as if the weld partially deleted the first numbers of the serial?
That might make further info hard to come by.

Again, Thanks for sharing some nice stuff, JT

 

[jimad]

thanks for the reply. just to be clear, i highly doubt i will ever fire any of these rifles. i have not checked the case length either. need to do some work on that. the carbine does seem to have been lined with three groves. the carbine # is 32471. the left side has a c and pat. 1848-can't see anything more. the lock plate has r.s.lawrence pat. april 12th, 1859. also c.sharps' pat. oct.5, 1852. this leads me to think it must be an 1859 model?
i believe the brass butted rifle is an 1869 model. # c,4436 on tang and 44361 on the barrel bottom. it has a thick lock plate which is smooth on top and c.sharps pat. oct.5, 1852. the barrel as mentioned, has "old reliable" in an oval on it. also has long range 90 on the right side. on the left is 2 3/16 i believe. it maybe some other sixteenth. the 90 mark is a larger font-maybe added later? it is 28" long and 13/16 thick octagonal. the barrel has fairly good bluing, whereas the receiver has none-it is brownish. i think there is the possibility that the barrel is not original. also this is not a conversion rifle. my understanding is that both old reliable and long range were only available later in production-is that correct?
the model 1874 is in rough condition. only # readable on the tang is 6380. on the barrel bottom is # 156380. on top is sharps rifle co. bridgeport. conn. the left side has sharps rifle co apr. 6, 1869 and also 6380 inside. it is .40 caliber with a 30" barrel that is 15/16 thick. the tang needs to be repaired and needs the mainspring and tumbler and the front trigger spring. also a bridle screw and a butt plate screw. cimarron has a parts list that shows a fly by the tumbler. don't know what this is as mine does not have one. my 1869 model does have a small moving part under the tumbler. is this the fly? does the 1874 even have one? cimarron did not think their parts would work in a original 1874. do you know where i can find what i need? i know dixie has the mainspring, but little else.

thx. jim

 

[jimad]

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[jimad]

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any ideas?