Mosin Nagant - Positive & Negative Trigger Engagement

[carbine85]

My question is how do you see if you have positive or negative trigger engagement with the Mosin Nagant?
The bolt on my best trigger doesn't move prior to release. I'm thinking this is neutral engagement.
My Mosin with the worse trigger the bolt moves downward as you pull the trigger and the pull is long. I'm thinking this is positive engagement.
My M38 has a shorter pull and the bolt moves upward as you pull the trigger. I'm thinking this is negative engagement.
Is this correct or is my thinking backwards?

 

[carbine85]

Do any of you guys know what im asking?

 

[greenlion]

I know what you are talking about in regards to an SKS rifle. I've never really thought about it on the Mosin Nagant. I think the only real problem with it in the SKS was the free floating firing pin.

 

[ball3006]

I have 29 Mosin Nagant rifles. Each one has a different trigger. To shoot them, it is called proper trigger manipulation and practice........chris3

 

[rcmodel]

Do any of you guys know what im asking?

Yes, I know.
Just trying to sort my thoughts on how best to answer.

Yes, your thinking is correct.

But only the neutral engagement will result in the best trigger pull.
As long as it will reengage the sear if you let off the trigger.

The positive engagement one is probably the safest, because it will try to reengage the sear if you change your mind before it goes off.

The 'negative engagement' one is the least safe.
Because once it starts sliding down the sear, there is no way it is going back.

Unless you have an overly powerful sear spring to push it back into full engagement.
Which makes for a heavier trigger pull then it needs to be.


PS: Duplicate post running in Gunsmithing forum!!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9243256#post9243256

rc

 

[carbine85]

Thanks for the replies. I'm accustomed to checking forward and rearward travel of a hammer type system. I just wasn't sure about the striker type bolts. All of my USGI rifles have neutral engagement or a better fitment of the bolt and you can't see any movement. The Mosin bolts are very loose. I didn't think the upward travel of the bolt was the best option.

 

[ball3006]

Mosin Nagant bolts are different than other rifle bolt designs. The forward part of the bolt is the only part that locks up with the chamber. The other two parts of the three part bolt assy, are free to slop around. That is why you get the movement....chris3

 

[BCRider]

Ball3996's reply is what I was thinking as well.

As for the rear portion moving when the trigger is being pulled you can't discount the effect of friction either. Even an exact neutral angle between sear and tail piece lip will have friction that will pull the bolt downwards during the trigger pull until it meets something hard or the tension to flex the bolt in that way snaps the firing pin's tail piece off the sear's hook.

 

[carbine85]

Mosin Nagant bolts are different than other rifle bolt designs. The forward part of the bolt is the only part that locks up with the chamber. The other two parts of the three part bolt assy, are free to slop around. That is why you get the movement....chris3

The loose fit of the Russian rifles is the main reason why I asked the question. All of mine are different. My Polish M44 has a good fit and no apparent movement of the bolt as you squeeze the trigger. It's something I think you should pay attention to and understand before you attempt any trigger work.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Positive/negative engagement would result in the cocking piece moving forward (negative) or rearward (positive). Up and down movement is just the loose fit of a Mosin.

Not sure how the cocking piece moves up whole pulling the trigger, they typically move down. The Finns put small "wings" on the cocking piece of some M27's that slot into the receiver to prevent this. Trouble was, the slots in the receiver would get crid in them and prevent the rifle firing, so they stopped doing it.

 

[Scoped]

I have 29 Mosin Nagant rifles. Each one has a different trigger. To shoot them, it is called proper trigger manipulation and practice........chris3

29?! You, sir, are definitely a force to be reckoned with

 

[HammsBeer]

Does the rear cocking piece on the mosin move rearward as you pull the trigger?

On my K31's, as you take up the long first stage trigger, the cocking ring moves back a couple millimeters and stops when the second stage is reached. If you release the trigger the cocking ring returns forward.
Would this be positive or negative?

 

[carbine85]

Does the rear cocking piece on the mosin move rearward as you pull the trigger?

No forward or rearward movement detected on any of them. It's either no movement, upward, or downward.
One thing I haven't done is measure the amount of play in each bolt of the rifles. I know the Polish M44 which is neutral has a very nice fit.