My letter to the editor

[armedcitizen]

In light of the recent concert shooting, central Ohio will soon become ground zero in the continuing CCW debate. I sent this letter to the Columbus Dispatch this morning. I know there's a lot more to be said, but shorter letters get published over lengthy ones.

Editors,

The recent shooting at the Al Rosa Villa highlights a problem with Ohio's concealed carry law. Concealed carry license holders are prohibited by law from carrying their weapons in establishments that sell alcohol for consumption on the premises. As a result, Nathan Gale was the only one at the Al Rosa on Wednesday night with a weapon until the police arrived. Fortunately, Officer Niggemeyer arrived quickly, ending the incident before even more people were killed. Ohio's law needs to be changed so that license holders are no longer restricted in this manner.

 

[Henry Bowman]

A lot more could be said, but newspapers look for "sound bite" letters to publish. Good job.

 

[kimbernut]

armedcitizen

You volunteering for the designated CCW holder ? Maybe it's my age-I may be wrong but I'd be interested to watch your thread and see.I imagine most armed CCW holders avoid clubs that serve alcohol not because it's illegal but because it's not the smartest place to be. A righteous shooting in any environment will be thoroughly investigated and most likely prosecuted. Have a couple of drinks added to a tightly packed club and see what happens. Not a situation in which I care to put myself or anyone I care for.

 

[armedcitizen]

kimber, I absolutely agree that guns and alcohol do not mix. The problem with Ohio's law is that there is no distintion between a "club" like where this shooting took place and my neighborhood Max and Erma's. Due to the consumption on premises provision, CCW holders can't carry either type of place.

 

[duck hunt]

But Kimber, put yourself in this situation: I'm female, 5'2, non-drinker and big music fan. If I want to go to a club and see a band in Richmond's rather dangerous nightclub district, I have to leave my gun in the car, probably several blocks away. I'm supposed to walk to and from the club at night unarmed simply because they serve alcohol that I won't be drinking?

 

[spacemanspiff]

how about the voice of reason for a minute here?

you want to go to a restaurant that serves alcohol while carrying? okay, just dont consume any alcohol while carrying.
but you want to go to a bar and carry???? i dont care what your reason is for going to the bar or whether or not you will drink. that kind of law is there for good reason. not because you, the law abiding gunowner is at risk of doing something stupid, but because of the other drunken dillholes that are there.
how many people here have at least witnessed one barfight?
how many of those barfights would have happened if the participants were sober?

in a bar, theres a good chance that your weapon would be easily discovered as people brush up against you. unless you are carrying on the inside of your thigh, your concealed weapon will be discovered.

does anyone else remember the advice that has been given on forums like this, and often is given when you obtain your CCW?

Don't go anywhere armed that you wouldnt go unarmed.

if you arent comfortable in an area without your weapon, you shouldnt be there with your weapon in the first place.

 

[duck hunt]

Don't talk down to me, Spiff. I'm not talking about going to hang out in some dank hole, I'm talking about going to see a friend's band, or a band I enjoy at a nightclub.

I went to see my friends Emily and Ducky perform their "Butt-Kicking Bombshells" act at a club in Ricmond Wednesday night. I sat off to the side. No one brushed up against me. No one would have "discovered" my gun had I been carrying. No one there was drunk and rowdy. You and I must be going to different kinds of nightclubs.

The main thing that necessitates the carry is the walk to the car at 2am. Perhaps your solution is "don't go," but then maybe you don't like music as much as I do, and maybe you don't have friends coming down from NY to do a show you'd promised to attend. I have good reasons for going the places I go. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to protect myself in the process.

 

[Henry Bowman]

"but you want to go to a bar and carry???? i dont care what your reason is for going to the bar or whether or not you will drink. that kind of law is there for good reason. not because you, the law abiding gunowner is at risk of doing something stupid, but because of the other drunken dillholes that are there.

in a bar, theres a good chance that your weapon would be easily discovered as people brush up against you. unless you are carrying on the inside of your thigh, your concealed weapon will be discovered. "

Spiff -- What you are saying makes no sense at all. I'm with Duck on this one. I can witness a bar fight without becoming involved. I can back away from a fight whether I'm armed or not. The fact that someone else might not is not relevant at all. This "kind of law" is NOT there for a GOOD reason. being armed around drunks (when I'm not) doesn't make me dangerous. If someone brushes up against my concealed weapon -- and knows what it is [unlikely] -- so what?

Please rethink your comments. From posts of yours I've read within the last year, it seems you spend a LOT of time in places too dangerous to go armed or not.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i'm not talking down to you. i'm being a realist. its my opinion that if the laws were amended to allow permit holders to carry concealed into establishments that serve alcohol, it wouldnt save lives. in the situation with dimebag, would anyone in the crowd have had a clear shot with everyone trying to escape?

no one is saying you shouldnt go to see your friends band or enjoy any music anywhere. but if it takes you to places or times of the night when it isnt safe, you should re-think your decision to enjoy such music/venues at those particular times.

the fact of the matter is that there will always be some areas that we can't carry our guns into. sometimes we have to make sacrifices to comply with the law. sometimes that means we choose not to do something we enjoy.

 

[duck hunt]

no one is saying you shouldnt go to see your friends band or enjoy any music anywhere. but if it takes you to places or times of the night when it isnt safe, you should re-think your decision to enjoy such music/venues at those particular times.

Fine. Let's call THE WORLD and tell them to move the nightclubs, and have all of the shows be during banker's hours!

I mean, really. You can't be serious.

BTW, I met a drunk chick named Big Daddy at the club who was carrying a switchblade. Hold up! That's a concealed weapon and illegal to boot! Again, the concealed carry law only affected the sober, law-abiding person! As usual! Those laws may "be there for a reason," as you say, but they do not accomplish what they set out to do and should be abolished.

 

[Henry Bowman]

In the situation with "Dimebag," a CCW in the crowd probably would not have made a difference. Allowing the house security guy who was pursuing the shooter and who also got shot probably would have. All situations will not be like the one that just went down in Columbus. In other situations that are far more likely to occur that this deal (especially to and from venue), it could make a big difference. There are several states that allow open or concealed carry in bars, clubs, and alcohol-serving restauraunts. Point us to the actual problems, if any, there.

 

[Al Norris]

I live in one of those states that allow carry, open or concealed, in bars, nightclubs and restaurants that serve alcohol. I have never heard of such an incident happening here. Doesn't mean that it never has, just that I haven't heard of it. Must not be common, I suspect.

So what was your point, again, spacemanspiff?

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Minnesota's new carry law -- now on hold, thanks to a handpicked liberal judge* -- also allows carrying into places that serve alcohol.

Drinking, however, is verboten -- a BAC of .04 to .08 is a misdemeanor, and results in a 180-day suspension of your carry permit. A BAC of .08 or more is a misdemeanor, the permit is revoked, and you can't apply again for a year.

This is eminently sensible -- it punishes bad behavior, not proximity to alcohol.

(*The old law, under which 22,000 of us currently carry while the courts deal with the gun-grabbers' challenge, offers NO restrictions on drinking! Feel free to get loaded while loaded for bear! It's legal! Thanks, gun grabbers, for making us all safer!)

How many of those 22,000 permit holders have gotten into shoot-`em-up bar fights?

Three guesses...

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If you said, "none," you're right.

Spiff, the grabbers want to impose plenty of useless rules. We don't need to add our own.

 

[LaVere]

Michigan Guns and Booze

In Michigan one can carry in a place the serves alcohol. IF over 50 % of its income is from Nonalcohol i.e. food. Exactly how one know is not to well definded. But generaly a food place that serves alcohol would be ok. Also you should not drink while there and carring.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I live in one of those states that allow carry, open or concealed, in bars, nightclubs and restaurants that serve alcohol. I have never heard of such an incident happening here.

Same here in Colorado. I have a hunch the vast majority of people who regularly keep and bear arms are simply too level-headed and responsible to behave like fools.

 

[Librarian]

Don't go anywhere armed that you wouldn't go unarmed.

if you arent comfortable in an area without your weapon, you shouldnt be there with your weapon in the first place.

California: People v. Gonzalez 71 C. 569, 578 1887

For one may know that if he travels along a certain highway he will be attacked by another with a deadly weapon, and be compelled in self defense to kill his assailant, and yet he has the right to travel that highway, and is not compelled to turn out of his way to avoid the expected unlawful attack.
Quoted in Kasler, Peter Alan, Everything you've ever wanted to know about California Gun Laws: A plain-language restatement of Part 4, Title 2, California Penal Code, California's Dangerous Weapons' Control Law

Perhaps don't foolishly go places - but IMO "Don't go" is far too strong. Good guys (tm) have rights, too.

 

[JPM70535]

First, as a working LEO, I had always carried my off duty weapon any place I went. That included Bars, concerts, Parades and just about any other Verboten area as specified in most Carry States while off duty. After retirement, I ask myself what has changed that makes me any more unsuited to continue as before? NOTHING!

Now I have to switch sides and bear the anger of THR by saying that while visiting the Bars etc. over the years I observed one constant behaviour pattern that prompts me to say , I believe GUNS AND BARS DON'T MIX. And here is why.

There are 2 kinds of drinkers, Happy, and Mean. Fortunately I turn into a happy drinker with no thoughts of violence lurking in the recesses of my mind. My worst transgression is my belief that I am the worlds greatest dancer after a few drinks. On the other hand I have seen too many normally decent citizens become nasty, mean, and violent over nothing after a few drinks. I truly do not want them to be armed anywhere near me or mine, and if the truth be told, niether would you. The problem is, how do you tell the difference before it's too late? Answer: YOU CAN'T.

I no longer frequent the Bars, but I still attend Concerts, Parades, and Festivals, and all I will say about that is "Concealed means Concealed.

 

[mt]

Seems like many people assume you only go to a bar to get drunk and for most that's just not true. I hang out in one at least 3 times a week with my co-workers and while we may nurse a beer or have a glass of wine with dinner (or may not) no one even gets close to intoxicated.

Personally I would have no problem with someone having their gun in a bar; I would be happy to treat it the same way I do car keys. Once your judgment starts to get impaired you give up your keys and firearm (although it would be better to stick to a coke if you plan on carying or driving).

 

[Ryder]

We don't have people pulling guns in bars, we have laws against that here.

What generally happens here is that they leave and come back with a gun. Criminals you see don't care about the law, what they do care about are easy victims.

I don't agree on giving drunks a free pass to assault others. Drunkeness is impaired reasoning but so is insanity. Are you not going to stop a guy from trying to kill or maim you just because he's crazy? Drinking is no excuse for threatening behaviour in my book.

 

[justice4all]

Here we can carry in bars and even drink, so long as we are not "under the influence." I'm not aware of any problems that have resulted from this level of trust. It surprises me that Alaska of all places does not trust its citizens in the same way. But apparently some of the citizens, who otherwise support the RKBA, think the current law is a good thing.

 

[TarpleyG]

Dare I say 'spiff has a problem with bouncers, bars, and clubs in general??

Greg

 

[duck hunt]

Greg, I think you have a point. Just as there are people who shouldn't carry, there are people who shouldn't go to bars.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[2400]

the fact of the matter is that there will always be some areas that WE can't carry our guns into. sometimes WE have to make sacrifices to comply with the law. sometimes that means WE choose not to do something we enjoy.

Spiff, who is this "we" you're refering to?

 

[Amegatek]

In the situation with "Dimebag," a CCW in the crowd probably would not have made a difference. Allowing the house security guy who was pursuing the shooter and who also got shot probably would have. All situations will not be like the one that just went down in Columbus. In other situations that are far more likely to occur that this deal (especially to and from venue), it could make a big difference. There are several states that allow open or concealed carry in bars, clubs, and alcohol-serving restauraunts. Point us to the actual problems, if any, there.

1. There were two unarmed CCW's in the audience in close proximity to Dimebag and the shooter. Read this: http://www.ofcc.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2603
   
2. The "house security guy" pursuing the shooter, was actually with the band. He was the head of their security. He was also killed. Had he been able to be armed, the shooter, IMHO, may have been the only death.

 

[armedcitizen]

My letter, quoted in my original post waaaaaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread was published in the Columbus Dispatch on Sunday, December 12.
If any Ohioans here agree with my thoughts this would be a good time to write a follow up letter.