Need help identifying Springfield Rolling Block

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Snidely70431

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Picked up a Rolling Block at a Militaria show this past weekend in Mandeville, LA. It was sold to me as a 50-70 Springfield trial gun, which may be what it is, but a standard 50-70 cartridge does not chamber.
What it is not:
a NY National Guard rifle - the sling swivel is not on the trigger guard.
one of the rifles sold to France - the sight is too far forward.
made by Remington - only markings are US 1863 on the top of the receiver

Any information would be much appreciated.

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The first 50-70's were some sort of rim fire cartridges.

.50-70 was always centerfire, but the early rounds used the Benet inside primer, so they look like rimfires.

The first Trapdoors were chambered for a .58 rimfire but that was superseded in 1866 by .50-70 centerfires.

That 1863 stamp is puzzling and I have to wonder if it was added by someone trying to make it seem older than it actually is.
 
1863? Not many cartridge rolling blocks from any maker. Springfield was making as many muzzle loading muskets as they could, something about a war going on.
In 1865, Springfield built a few Trapdoors in 58 caliber and in 1866 they started building trapdoors chambered for the 50-70 cartridge.

Kevin
 
Could be an Reworked Argentine Carbine. They are around. Probably originally .43 Spanish.
I didnt know Springfield ever made Rolling blocks. Remington was the maker of them. They made them for lots of other countrys in lots different calibers. Carbines, and Rifles.
New York State was thier biggest U S customer, if I remember right.

Dave
 
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Could be an Reworked Argentine Carbine. They are around. Probably originally .43 Spanish.
I didnt know Springfield ever made Rolling blocks. Remington was the maker of them. They made them for lots of other countrys in lots different calibers. Carbines, and Rifles.
New York State was thier biggest U S customer, if I remember right.

Dave

Springfield made some between 1871-1872. That's a rifle not a carbine. If it was a carbine it could possibly have been a 50-45.
 
Is it possible the 3 is an 8? The rolling block came out in 1867.
I looked at the receiver again. The last digit is definitely a 3, not an eight. If you look at the picture of the receiver, the top of the last digit is flat, not curved like an eight would be.

From Wikipedia:
The Remington Rolling Block was developed from the 1863 pattern .50 calibre split breech carbine issued to the US Cavalry during the American Civil War. This earlier weapon was designed by Joseph Rider and Leonard Geiger to fire the same cartridges as the Spencer carbine.[4]
 
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1863? Not many cartridge rolling blocks from any maker. Springfield was making as many muzzle loading muskets as they could, something about a war going on.
In 1865, Springfield built a few Trapdoors in 58 caliber and in 1866 they started building trapdoors chambered for the 50-70 cartridge.

Kevin
From Wikipedia:
The Spencer repeating rifles and carbines were early American lever-action firearms invented by Christopher Spencer. The Spencer was the world's first military metallic-cartridge repeating rifle, and over 200,000 examples were manufactured in the United States by the Spencer Repeating Rifle Co. and Burnside Rifle Co. between 1860 and 1869. The Spencer repeating rifle was adopted by the Union Army, especially by the cavalry, during the American Civil War but did not replace the standard issue muzzle-loading rifled muskets in use at the time. Among the early users was George Armstrong Custer. The Spencer carbine was a shorter and lighter version designed for the cavalry.
 
I looked at the receiver again. The last digit is definitely a 3, not an eight. If you look at the picture of the receiver, the top of the last digit is flat, not curved like an eight would be.

From Wikipedia:
The Remington Rolling Block was developed from the 1863 pattern .50 calibre split breech carbine issued to the US Cavalry during the American Civil War. This earlier weapon was designed by Joseph Rider and Leonard Geiger to fire the same cartridges as the Spencer carbine.[4]

From Wikipedia:
The Spencer repeating rifles and carbines were early American lever-action firearms invented by Christopher Spencer. The Spencer was the world's first military metallic-cartridge repeating rifle, and over 200,000 examples were manufactured in the United States by the Spencer Repeating Rifle Co. and Burnside Rifle Co. between 1860 and 1869. The Spencer repeating rifle was adopted by the Union Army, especially by the cavalry, during the American Civil War but did not replace the standard issue muzzle-loading rifled muskets in use at the time. Among the early users was George Armstrong Custer. The Spencer carbine was a shorter and lighter version designed for the cavalry.

None of that justifies the 1863 date.


A mixture of 2 parts sulphur and 3 parts graphite will make a chamber or bore casting that has almost no shrinkage. Brownells sells a casting material called Cerrosafe.

Crayons give an accurate cast and are easier to get and a lot cheaper than Cerrosafe. They're more fragile but they do the job.
 
None of that justifies the 1863 date.



Crayons give an accurate cast and are easier to get and a lot cheaper than Cerrosafe. They're more fragile but they do the job.

I am just trying to get information about this rifle. Justified or not, the US and 1863 stamped on the receiver exist.

Do you know anything about the shrink rate of crayons? Clyde Baker in "Modern Gunsmithing" gives a shrink rate of .0005" after the pour and .001" after a couple of hours for the graphite - sulphur mixture. I may try crayons. My wife is a crafter and has a bunch of of broken ones around somewhere.
 
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Centerfire breechblock? Or rimfire?
If I were tinkering around in those days I might have used .56-50 Spencer just for common ammo.
Even though it is riflel length, it might still be .50 Carbine.
It is .50 caliber, isn't it?
 
Excerpt from an article in the Remington Society of America by Dr. Glenn Kaye:
https://www.remingtonsociety.org/remington-military-rolling-block-exhibit-of-dr-glenn-kaye/
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Remington Military Rolling Block Exhibit of Dr. Glenn Kaye

This display includes most examples of the U.S. military contracts for Remington rolling block longarms, excluding conversion guns and cadet guns. While U.S. military usage was limited, they are an important part of the lineage of U.S. military arms, as well as a part of the history of arguably the most successful and widely used action design worldwide.

In 1863, Leonard Geiger, a Remington employee, patented a rotating-breechblock, single-shot, breechloading mechanism for use with metallic cartridges. The design was modified by the plant supervisor, Joseph Rider, in 1863 and 1864 and led to the development of the Remington Split Breech carbine, of which 20,000 were manufactured for the Union Army during the Civil War. Further improvements of the design in 1865 and 1866 ultimately led to the Remington-Rider rolling block Action, which was manufactured in versions of pistols, carbines and rifles, in both sporting and military configurations. The Remington rolling block was marketed both at home and abroad, and quickly became known as one of the strongest and most reliable action designs of the single-shot cartridge era. While domestic military contracts for rolling block arms were limited, foreign contracts were filled for literally dozens of countries, and far surpassed one and a half million rifles by the beginning of the 20th century. Eventually, the development of repeating arms significantly diminished the military usefulness of the Rolling Block design, yet these rifles were still being issued and used by major powers through the First World War, and by minor powers long after. To this day, sporting and target versions of Rolling Block rifles are manufactured and widely used.

Note that Geiger and Rider were designing actions in 1863 and 1864.
 
Centerfire breechblock? Or rimfire?
If I were tinkering around in those days I might have used .56-50 Spencer just for common ammo.
Even though it is riflel length, it might still be .50 Carbine.
It is .50 caliber, isn't it?
I think Geiger and Rider were a lot more than tinkerers.
I have not miked the barrel or chamber. My "round tuit" has not extended that far.
 
Curiouser and curiouser. There is an 1863 date stamped on the butt plate

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And the ramrod is an 1863 Springfield rifled musket ramrod

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However, the extractor is consistent with a late model .43 Spanish

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Drove a .45 lead ball into the muzzle of the rifle and miked it. It mikes at .442, consistent with some 43 Spanish rifles. My internet research shows that 43 Spanish rolling blocks can vary from .439 to .45
 
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