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TheOutlawKid
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This is all great information...keep it coming guys. And i think ill be taking mr.robhofs advice and getting the .54 with an REAL mold.
Need some advice for hawken type muzzleloader
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Loyalist Dave
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So First, your are talking about a 24" barreled rifle. I am curious as to why you are not looking at a Lyman Trade Rifle with a 28" barrel? The added four inches will give you better performance out of your black powder load.
Black bear have been successfully taken with .50 round ball as well as .54 round ball. In fact Grizzly have been taken with .54 round ball, but I for one would not recommend it.
Contrary to what you often hear the 1:48 twist rate was not a compromise twist. That's 20th century marketing. A whole lot of original black powder rifles were 1:48, and many of them were made before the conical was introduced. The question is then how heavy a load will the patched ball accept with the depth of the rifling of your particular rifle. You won't really know until you get a rifle and do some actual tests.You have the option of either rifle caliber from Lyman and either length barrel, launching a conical or a round ball, so..., a conical will give you the extra mass needed to drive the bullet deep into the bear for a successful harvest. A .50 conical will do just fine, but in either caliber with that short barrel you may be looking at a pretty stout load. Perhaps and likely (imho) above 90 grains.
The Lee REAL bullets are probably the best idea, and you should get a mold that makes both the conical and the round ball for your rifle.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010203856?pid=362053
As for deer, go with a round ball. They do a great job of harvesting whitetails, and you can use a load in the 70-90 grain range, and you won't beat the heck out of your shoulder at the range sighting it in.
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robhof
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The 54 will easily take both deer and bear, I use the 50 in Ky., the deer are smaller than the northern deer, less powder and less lead for the same result. I got the 54 1st and was rapidly using up my pure lead target shooting, so originally got a 50 barrel from Ebay, then added another stock, so I could just grab the gun I wanted for the game I was after. The recoil is somewhat stronger with the 50, but much less than from my modern 12Ga. My 54 was a Investarms kit, I found out that their barrels, actions and stocks are interchangeable with Thompsons. I have a 50 flint Thompson and I've switched the action from one stock to the other.
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TheOutlawKid
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Mr.loyalist dave the reason why i would get the 24 inch barreled gun is because im poor and its on sale for 349 lol. Cant afford a nicer gun. One day i will though
arcticap
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Lee also makes some .54 minie molds with reportedly good results from Lyman 1 in 48" rifles.
Lee minie molds. --->>> https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-minie-bullet-molds.
Thread about the .54 Deerstalker shooting REALs plus more: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/54-lyman-deerstalker-lee-real-question.25320/
Lee minie molds. --->>> https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-minie-bullet-molds.
Thread about the .54 Deerstalker shooting REALs plus more: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/54-lyman-deerstalker-lee-real-question.25320/
I had and hunted with one of the first TC Renegades. 1 in 48 twist. At fifty yards, round balls and the maxi ball grouped together with 90 grains of ffg. I sighted it at 100 yards with the maxi and only hunted with that. 440 grains, iirc, and never recovered one. Only three deer so my sample might be too small, all double lung. I recovered a couple 50 round balls, both under the skin on the off side after double lung shots.
robhof
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Interesting reading, Both my REAL in 50 and 54 cal shoot fine and give 3" to 4" groups at 50 yds, however I do weigh my bullets and have found as much as 10gr differences in castings, I group them within 2gr lots for shooting. Learned the weighing the bullet from an Army Sniper, even factory precision jacketed bullets can vary by as much as 5gr..
So what are you going to get? I don't shoot muzzleloaders much my first was a CVA Bobcat that I still have came with an ugly black stock got on sale at Midway for fifty bucks. Right out of the box it shot great with both Lee real bullets and PRB. I treaded a Mauser action to a guy to make me a wood stock and metal hardware and I had the barrel coned as well. I know it is not a very impressive rifle but I just like it. When you are buying these guns it's a crapshoot you just never know what you are going to like. In my mind, 54 cal muzzleloaders are just cool.
Loyalist Dave
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Well budget is a very valid concern...,
There is nothing wrong with a shorter barrel. The Germans favored them..., many still do. There are just adjustments to it, the same as there would be if you bought a 42" caplock, longrifle.
As far as "nicer" goes..., the only thing that really counts (imho) is when you pull the trigger does it go BANG and when it does, does it hit where you're aiming.
The rest..., is just aesthetics.
I've seen some mighty plain rifles that were beautiful shooters, and put venison or bear burgers on the table.
LD
Ernie Bass
member
As someone new to the sport of Muzzle loaders I wonder a little why so many threads go right to Hunting. I bought a Budget inline to learn the sport and found out I really just like shooting them. I plan to get a Hawken in the Future or similar. But my desire will be for target shooting and just the enjoyment that these bring to the table. In reality, there will not be much Hunting with one. Where I live, you have a two week window to use one for Deer Hunting and I may or may not use one. And I do not plan on the gun sitting in the safe for the rest of the year. Just a newbies perspective.
By the way I saw this gun on another forum and have to say, I just love looking at it and would love to shoot it.
By the way I saw this gun on another forum and have to say, I just love looking at it and would love to shoot it.
arcticap
Member
FWIW, in many states it's also legal to hunt with a muzzle loader during the regular rifle season.
But a person should check their hunting reg's or ask their state game authorities to be sure.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
At last count, I have eight .54's, all twisted for roundball. I would not hesitate to use a .54cal roundball on anything up to elk and black bear. Conicals in a muzzleloader just doesn't interest me.
Loyalist Dave
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I wonder why when folks talk of hunting, you seem to imply that target shooting is not much of an activity?
I just checked North Carolina, and "Deer Season" opens, if you can use a muzzleloader when it's "gun" season, for at least 30 days and in some areas quite a bit longer. https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Hunting/Season Date PDFs/2020-21-Big-Game-Season Dates-Deer.pdf In my state I regularly hunt deer in both the ML and "gun" season. In fact more land is open to me than a modern rifle hunter, due to restrictions on rifle use. Although the state has just authorized "straight walled" cartridge rifles for "gun" season in restricted areas.
If the hunter wishes, and has an accurate rifle, then small game head-shots are also a way to extend the "season".
There are other options..., the easiest is to keep an eye open for a used Lyman with a ruined bore in the OP's case , and have it reamed out to 28 gauge and go for small game that way. The other is to opt for a .40 caliber rifle OR have a .40 caliber or smaller barrel fitted to the current rifle for small game..., but that gets pricey.
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Ernie Bass
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Dave, I was not implying anything. In my County there is a a two week window to hunt deer with a Muzzle loader. And as far as Deer goes, I use a Shotgun, which is the only weapon to to use in many counties. Besides I have used Shotguns all my life. And I "still" hunt and also belong to a club with dogs and Shotguns only.
. Muzzle loaders for hunting is just something I am not interested in. Maybe if I was younger but not now. What I was saying, or alluding to was that it just seems that most Muzzle loader threads go directly to hunting and not target shooting. Maybe I am wrong and just can't find much on the subject. I am sure there are matches etc. I guess I need to just continue to do more research
Come this fall, I will around many old time friends and will get into the subject of Muzzle loading target shooting and be steered to the right directions.
As far as muzzle loading in NC it does extend through what seems like the whole season, but specific dates for each county. .
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TheOutlawKid
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Welp i wanted to get me a hawken BUT it will have to wait. I was getting the funds from a job i was supposed to do for a customer who was sending me a few guns to work....but the job fell through. So im back to scrimpin and savin. Although i really appreciate all the answers and feedback. Truely is appreciated. Still would like to hear more as im still planning on getting one. Im leaning more towards a .54 for an all around gun but i got a great offer on a .45 which is a caliber i have always wanted in a hawken. So decisions decisions!
arcticap
Member
TheOutlawKid,
Think about the difference in BP calibers in much the same way as shotgun slugs.
In BP, the most common calibers are .45, .50 and .54, while for shotguns it's the 20 ga., 16 ga., and 12 ga.
In BP, there's no caliber that's perfect for everything, both target and hunting, but with traditional guns it's long been supposed that the .50 is the best all around caliber because it's more versatile.
The smaller the caliber, quite often the faster and flatter that it will shoot, much like the .36 in the revolver world, or the 20 ga. with shotguns.
Many folks really like the .45 ball for target shooting, and some use it for hunting too.
It really depends on the size of the deer in your area and the type of terrain being hunted, because without using a conical., there's not as much of a margin for error.
The margin of error might be the difference between anchoring an animal to keep it from running off wounded for a 1/2 mile if a person didn't make the perfect shot, or not needing to track it down very far.
So while the .45 patched round ball may not be ideal for every part of the country, it can work, but a .45 conical would work better at marginal distances beyond the edge of the optimum range of a round ball.
The .440 - .445 round balls only weigh 128 - 133 grains.
That's adequate but the .45 conicals which weigh 200 - 250 - 300 grains are a little more forgiving depending on the circumstances of the shot.
But for target shooting the .45 PRB's are a blast to shoot and can be very accurate.
In BP, quite often people end up eventually buying more than one gun because they can be used for specialized purposes, especially if they're purchased used and at a cost savings
A moderate distance with a muzzle loader with open sights may only be 65 -75 yards, depending on a person's eyesight.
Some would say that they can shoot a deer at 100 - 125 yards.
It really depends on the caliber, the size of the projectile, the terrain and circumstances like the size of the deer and where you hit it, along with a little bit of luck.
How far do you want the deer to run and still be able to track down its blood trail and recover it.
The odds are usually better at the closer range than at the farther distance.
And then it's up to how accurately that the conical or the ball will shoot for the person behind the trigger.
A .45 is better for target than a .54 for many folks, less lead and less powder and a better trajectory out to 100 yards.
But the round ball can lose more energy than a .54 when it comes to hunting.
That's why the .50 is often viewed as being a little more versatile than either of them, but only in small ways.
They all work and can bag a deer just like all of the different gauges of shotguns can.
It depends on how a person hunts and the amount of their skill and luck.
Think about the difference in BP calibers in much the same way as shotgun slugs.
In BP, the most common calibers are .45, .50 and .54, while for shotguns it's the 20 ga., 16 ga., and 12 ga.
In BP, there's no caliber that's perfect for everything, both target and hunting, but with traditional guns it's long been supposed that the .50 is the best all around caliber because it's more versatile.
The smaller the caliber, quite often the faster and flatter that it will shoot, much like the .36 in the revolver world, or the 20 ga. with shotguns.
Many folks really like the .45 ball for target shooting, and some use it for hunting too.
It really depends on the size of the deer in your area and the type of terrain being hunted, because without using a conical., there's not as much of a margin for error.
The margin of error might be the difference between anchoring an animal to keep it from running off wounded for a 1/2 mile if a person didn't make the perfect shot, or not needing to track it down very far.
So while the .45 patched round ball may not be ideal for every part of the country, it can work, but a .45 conical would work better at marginal distances beyond the edge of the optimum range of a round ball.
The .440 - .445 round balls only weigh 128 - 133 grains.
That's adequate but the .45 conicals which weigh 200 - 250 - 300 grains are a little more forgiving depending on the circumstances of the shot.
But for target shooting the .45 PRB's are a blast to shoot and can be very accurate.
In BP, quite often people end up eventually buying more than one gun because they can be used for specialized purposes, especially if they're purchased used and at a cost savings
A moderate distance with a muzzle loader with open sights may only be 65 -75 yards, depending on a person's eyesight.
Some would say that they can shoot a deer at 100 - 125 yards.
It really depends on the caliber, the size of the projectile, the terrain and circumstances like the size of the deer and where you hit it, along with a little bit of luck.
How far do you want the deer to run and still be able to track down its blood trail and recover it.
The odds are usually better at the closer range than at the farther distance.
And then it's up to how accurately that the conical or the ball will shoot for the person behind the trigger.
A .45 is better for target than a .54 for many folks, less lead and less powder and a better trajectory out to 100 yards.
But the round ball can lose more energy than a .54 when it comes to hunting.
That's why the .50 is often viewed as being a little more versatile than either of them, but only in small ways.
They all work and can bag a deer just like all of the different gauges of shotguns can.
It depends on how a person hunts and the amount of their skill and luck.
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