Need some help here....

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ChrisAHF

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A few night ago I was walking with some friends to the store for some groceries. On your way back (8:00pm) and cop drives by and shines his spotter right in our faces (as if we weren't standing right under a street light). I had my pocket knife on me as I always do. My fairly small town has some ridiculous municipal law that makes basically anything they think is a weapon illegal. Here is the text.

B. Carrying of weapons prohibited; exceptions. No person shall carry about his or her person any dirk, bowie knife, sword, spear cane, pistol, revolver, slingshot, jimmy, brass knuckles, or other dangerous, improper or unlawful weapon, except that this subsection shall not apply to police officers or other persons expressly authorized to carry any such weapons.

My first question is do they need to probably cause for a terry frisk? My understanding is no. But for them to be able to just walk up and frisk anyone they want with no reasonable suspicion isnt right either. Also do you think the term "improper or unlawful weapon" is a little to broad to be in the law. My pocket knife doesnt fit under any other term besides this one, which is clearly at the discretion of the officer. Anyways the officer kept driving but it sure got me thinking. Also this is in no way cop bashing, I just wanted to state the facts.
 
My first question is do they need to probably cause for a terry frisk? My understanding is no.

They must arrest you. Otherwise, no search.

Also do you think the term "improper or unlawful weapon" is a little to broad to be in the law. My pocket knife doesnt fit under any other term besides this one, which is clearly at the discretion of the officer.

Yes, I do. Bad law. Seek to have it changed or move away from there ASAP (preference for the former).


-T.
 
They do not need to arrest you for a "Terry Frisk."

Heck, they don't even need "Probable Cause" to do a Terry frisk.

A Terry frisk is done for "officer safety" is designed to look for weapons that could be a danger to the officer. It is pretty routine for an officer to conduct a Terry frisk in almost any enounter.
 
They do not need to arrest you for a "Terry Frisk."

My mistake. You are right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisking

Frisking or a "patdown" is a search of a person's outer clothing wherein a police officer or other law enforcement agent runs his or her hands along the outer garments to detect any concealed weapons or other contraband.

In the case of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), the Supreme Court of the United States held that police have the ability to do a limited search for weapons of areas within the suspect’s control based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person stopped was "armed and dangerous" and had been, is, or was about to engage in a criminal act. The type of frisk authorized by this decision has become known as a Terry stop and frisk or simply Terry stop.

A Terry stop has two parts: the stop and the frisk. When Terry stopping someone, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has, is, or is about to be committed. During the course of the law enforcment agent's stop, if the officer feels that the suspect is in possession of a weapon that is of danger to him or others, he may conduct a patdown of the suspect's outer clothing garments to search for weapons. For the frisk to be constitutional, the officer must testify that he conducted a patdown for his personal safety, or the safety of others in the area. Pursuant to the "plain feel" doctrine, police may seize not only weapons discovered in a Terry stop but also contraband when the contraband nature of such is immediately apparent to the officer. An officer may not, however, seize such contraband if its identity is not immediately apparent to the officer upon administering the frisking.

Bad laws abound. (More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio)


-T.
 
When Terry stopping someone, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has, is, or is about to be committed.

In order for it to be a Terry stop, there has to be reasonable suspicion. So upon be asked for a search or pat down, the first response should be am I being detained and if so for suspicion of what? If the answer is no you are not being detained, the there is no cause for the frisk to occur. In my humble, very unqualified opinion.
 
It really doesn't much matter whether or not you were up to something,or if they have resonable cause to search you . If they want to, they can. All they have to do is say you were "acting suspiciously" or looked like you quickly hid something in your pocket when you saw them drive by, and that they smelled dope when they stopped. The same goes for driving down the road. All they have to do is SAY you swerved over the centerline,then pull you over, then all they have to do is say it looked like you stashed something under the seat, or that they thought they smelled marijuana.Simple. Honestly ( and sadly) i think our best bet is to politely go along with just about anything they "suggest".
 
The others already explained it.

Reasonable and articulable suspicion will justify a Terry-stop (pat-down of the outermost layer of clothing, for officer safety, due to weapons). This is the result of a US Supreme Court ruling in Terry v. Ohio.

If you were contacted, and it became an issue, I'd just say that you had the knife for some other lawful (non-weaponary) purpose. May or may not fly, depending on the officer, the knife, and the circumstances.

Personally, if that is the ENTIRE extent of the statute, you ought to start a petition about your town's ordinance. That is very vague, and technically leaves nearly anyone with any sort of pointy object in violation!

However, I imagine that if you did some deeper digging, you might learn that those items: "Dangerous", "improper", and "unlawful" are described in more depth (our equivalent statute specifically details what is required to fall under "dangerous" or "illegal" knives", and includes things like mechanically operated knives, blades over 3.5", etc).
 
In order for it to be a Terry stop, there has to be reasonable suspicion. So upon be asked for a search or pat down, the first response should be am I being detained and if so for suspicion of what? If the answer is no you are not being detained, the there is no cause for the frisk to occur. In my humble, very unqualified opinion.

And here, you are 100% correct.

The officer must be able to articulate the reasonable suspicion that caused the stop. And, you might ask, when does a "community contact" (the officer just walking up to talk to you) turn into a detention?

It is when a reasonable person no longer feels free to leave.

Do you have to consent to a search? NO--you do not.

Be advised, however, that if the officer CAN articulate reasonable suspicion, then the "Terry" frisk is in order. This frisk is NOT a search--it is a simple pat down for anything that can compromise the safety of the officer or the person being frisked.
 
Thanks. I did call the local police to ask if my pocket knife was legal. He was very rude and said do not carry it. I asked if it was illegal and he paused and said it was. I imagine he was right because it can easily fall under an improper weapon, just like my shoe. I may try to work on a petition. By the way im in Central New York. I would avoid it like the plague if I were you.:uhoh:
 
Wow! That is really sad. Here's a funny story to lighten things up. After my wife shot her .460 S&W for the first time and my .300 RSAUM, I made her key chain ornaments from the brass by putting a loop in through the primer pocket and seating a bullet in the empty brass. She carries both those on her keychain.

So we go to get our concealed carry permits, and even to get into the sheriffs dept we had to go through metal detector and security. So I take my keys out of my pocket which has a tiny little pocket knife, I mean like maybe 1 1/2 blade and put them in the basket. The guy tells me he will have to lock up my pocket knife and I can get it when I return. So that's okay, whatever.

My wife's purse goes through the x-ray machine and they just hand it to her. No comments or questions at all about what would almost have to look like live rounds of .460 S&W with a 250 grain hollow point bullet and a .300 RSAUM rifle round with a FMJ bullet! They just give her the purse back on we go on in. They sure didn't want me going psycho with my 1 1/2 blade though!
 
other persons expressly authorized to carry any such weapons

Doesn't say who must "expressly authorize" it. Ask whoever you live with if it's okay for you to carry that pocket knife. Get it in writing. You are then "expressly authorized" to carry it.
 
A good explaination of Terry Stops/Frisks

http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/terry-frisks-totality.shtml
Terry Frisks and the Totality of the Circumstances
By Brian Batterton

Many officers are of the belief that if they have the legal right to detain a suspect, they can automatically frisk that suspect “for officer safety.” However, in 1968, the United States Supreme Court held that an officer may conduct a limited search (frisk) of a suspect for weapons when the officer reasonably believes that the suspect, who is detained pursuant to a lawful investigatory detention, is armed and dangerous.i Specifically, the court, in Terry held

Where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, ...he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him.ii

Thus, there are two requirements in order to frisk a suspect. First, the suspect must be lawfully detained during an investigative detention. This means that the detention must be based upon reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. Reasonable suspicion is simply specific, articulable facts combined with the rational inferences from these facts, and taken in light of an officer’s training and experience, that leads an officer to believe criminal activity is occurring or has just occurred.iii

Second, the officer must have a reasonable belief that the suspect is armed and dangerous. This reasonable belief can come from a variety of factors. For example, the type of crime that an officer is investigating may be inherently dangerous, such as the possible armed robbery in Terry. Therefore, it would follow that, if an officer had reasonable suspicion that a particular suspect is involved in a crime that involved a weapon (i.e.: armed robbery, murder, assault with a deadly weapon, etc...), the officer would be entitled to frisk that suspect. Additionally, many courts have held that weapons are tools of the drug trade; therefore, if an officer has reasonable suspicion that a suspect is dealing drugs, the officer likewise can reasonably infer that the suspect may be armed and dangerous.iv Additionally, officers, in order to lawfully conduct a frisk, may rely on information from citizens, the type of area the suspect is in (i.e.: high crime, known for weapons), bulges in clothing, and behavioral indicators that a suspect may be armed. Everything should be considered and documented because the determination of reasonable suspicion is very fact specific and dependant upon the totality of the circumstances. Therefore, officers should document every fact that he or she is aware of, even seemingly innocent facts at the time, in order to provide a full picture of the totality of the circumstances that the officer relied upon in order to justify a frisk.

Now, assuming that an officer has a suspect lawfully detained, and also has a reasonable belief that a suspect is armed and dangerous, the officer may conduct “a limited search of the outer clothing of [the suspect] in an attempt to discover weapons...”v This “limited search” is characterized by some courts as a two part process: (1) the officer is entitled to pat down the exterior of the clothing of a suspect and (2) if the officer feels an object could be a weapon he may intrude into the clothing and seize the object.vi

On February 14, 2008, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals decided a case that illustrates the totality of the circumstance analysis that the courts will use to analyze whether a frisk was lawful. The United States v. Headen began when an ATF Agent with 15 years of experience and a Philadelphia Police Detective with 10 years of experience were working together in a violent crime unit in the southwest and west area of Philadelphia.viiThey received a tip from an informant who had provided accurate information in the past, that Allen Headen and Dorian Thompson were planning a retaliatory shooting of a rival gang member. The informant said that Headen and Thompson were in a blue mini-van and were armed. A few hours later, the informant called back and directed the agents to a particular location where the van was located.

The agents found the van and it was unoccupied. They noted the registration was expired and the registered owner was named Rodney Smith. The agents called the informant, and he confirmed that Headen and Thompson were acquainted with Smith. He also told the agents that they should wait and the men would be returning to the van.

The agents contacted additional units and waited. When Headen and Thompson returned, Thompson got into the drivers seat and Headen the passenger seat. As Thompson drove off, the agents attempted to stop the suspects based on the information provided and because of the registration violation, and a broken tail light. Thompson tried to flee, but the agents were able to force him to stop. Thompson was removed from the van and frisked; he was not carrying a gun, but he was wearing body armor. Headen door was opened and an agent frisked his waistband area. He felt a hard, L-shaped object in his waistband. Based on the feel of the object and the informant’s information, the object, which turned out to be a handgun, was seized. Headen was removed from the car and checked Headen’s pockets, locating another loaded handgun.

Headen argued that the stop and frisk of his person was not based on valid reasonable, articulable suspicion and the frisk was unlawful. First, it should be noted that that the agents had an objective reason, particularly the expired registration and equipment violation to stop the car. Therefore, even if the stop was pretext for the investigation of another crime, the stop would still be objectively reasonable.viii

However, even in light of the above traffic law violations, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals held that the agents, based on the information provided by the informant, and their personal observations, had reasonable suspicion to both stop and frisk Headen and Thompson.

The court reasoned that the agents were part of the area Violent Crime Impact team and both had extensive and special knowledge of the high crime nature of that area. They also had knowledge of Headen and Thompson. The court also considered that the informant had provided accurate information in the past and information that he provided in this case had been corroborated by the agents observations. Particularly, Headen and Thompson did return to the blue mini-van that the informant advised they would be in. The informant also corroborated that the van was registered to Rodney Smith, and that Headen and Thompson were acquaintances of Smith. Lastly, Thompson, the van’s driver, took evasive actions when approached by the agents. The court reasoned that these facts all justified the stop of Headen and Thompson. Further, these facts in addition to the officer’s knowledge that this is an area known for guns and violent crime, and the additional information from the informant that Headen was armed, in light of all of the other factors and corroboration of the informant, was sufficient to justify a frisk of Headen and Thompson.

In conclusion, the determination of whether reasonable suspicion exists to justify and stop and a frisk of a suspect is not rigid concept. According to the U.S. Supreme Court, reasonable suspicion is based upon “the totality of the circumstances – the whole picture.”ix Therefore, reasonable suspicion is based on a variety of factors such as specialized knowledge of the officers, investigative inferences, personal observations of suspicious behavior, and information from other sources.x In light of the variety of factors the courts will consider in a determination of reasonable suspicion, officer should be thorough and detailed in documenting every detail of the incident in their report.

CITATIONS:

iTerry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 27 (1968)

ii Id.at 30

ii Id.at 21

ivUnited States v. Trullo, 809 F.2d 108 (1st Cir.), cert. denied, 482 U.S. 916 (1987); Hayes v. State, 202 Ga. App. 204 (1993)

vTerry, 392 U.S. at 30

vThomas v. State, 231 Ga. App. 173 (1998)

vii No. 06-3965, 2008 U.S. App. LEXIS 3252 (3rd Cir. 2008)(unpublished)

viiiWhren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806 (1996)

ixUnited States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 8 (1989)

xHeaden, No. 06-3965 at 6
 
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