New-B looking for advice on accuracy

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Nathan67

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Hey guys, I'm somewhat new to handguns and am looking for advice on tightening up my groups. I shoot a ruger p89 9mm and am a lefty. Mainly I'm having problems with "the flinch". I didn't think I was doing it until the other day I thought I had another round in, but didn't, then pulled the trigger and it was very evident I flinched. Any ways to overcome this? I feel comfortable shooting, and don't know exacltly why I'm doing this. Also, any other general advice on proper techniques related to accuracey? Any advice at all is appreciated. I try to shoot at least once every week or two, and wish i could practice more, but I don't know of a range nearby. Thanks, -Nathan
 
Flinch is common as a cause of very open groups and inconsistency.

Spend more time disciplining yourself with empty gun (thrice cleared!) and plenty of dry fire - get that ''feel'' of good release instilled.

Load some mags in advance with ball and dummy - meaning, get some snap caps and load random live and snaps. When you come to shoot you'll not remember exactly where snaps are and then you'll see any flinch as the gun goes ''click'';)

If possible too - get a buddy to help with that and also even video some shooting - it shows errors quite well.

Remember, the trigger needs a progressive pressure thru it's range - with no jarring changes. Any time a shot goes it should be registered by you as ''oh it went'' - those shots will connect the best - while obviously maintaining a good sight picture and focussing on foresight.

Quite a few things to get right together but cure that flinch and you'll be 100% better real quick.

Here is an old thread I did way back - as a reminder of sights and pictures thereof -

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=67379

(for some reason right now, images in that thread are not showing - hopefully a short-term server problem only.)
 
Chris has given some very good advice.

I also want to add a dry firing drill... place a dime on the top of the slide when you're dryfiring (of course, make sure gun is UNLOADED). The goal is to be able to pull the trigger smoothly so the dime doesn't fall off the slide.

Dryfire practice helps. Also, when you're at the range, stop a few moments and dryfire practice before firing live ammo again, then repeat.

Good luck. Practice helps. You're groups should tighten in no time. :)
 
FOLLOW THIS LINK

http://www.ammoman.com/graphics/diagn_left.jpg

NATHAN FOLLOW THE LINK ABOVE. I WAS UNABLE TO PASTE THE PICTURE. IT IS A TARGET WITH QUADRENTS RADIATING OUT FROM THE BULLS EYE TELLING THE SHOOTER WHAT HAPPEND WITH THAT PARTICULAR ROUND. EXAMPLE: DOWN AND TO THE RIGHT FOR YOU WOULD BE "JERKING" THE TRIGGER, FOR A RIGHTY IT WOULD BE DOWN AND TO THE LEFT. I TAKE A LOT OF FRIENDS AND FAMILY SHOOTING AND IM MORE OF A PLINKER THAN A TARGET SHOOTER BUT THE FIRED CASEINGS IN A MAG ALL WAYS SHRUNK PEOPLES GROUPS WHEN WE DID IT. I MEAN ALWAYS! IT REALY DRIVES HOME THE LESSON OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING SUBCONCIOUSLY WHEN YOU'RE EXPECTING THE RUGER TO BARK SPARKS AND HAVE THE SLIDE FLY BACK BUT INSTEAD YOU HEAR CLICK AND YOU SEE YOUR MUZZLE DIP DOWN. - JOE MAC
 

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The suggestions so far have been spot on. Flinch is an interesting thing in that we all do it when we start off, but I would suspect most experienced shooter still occasionally do it, or at least I know I do! For me, I trained my way out of flinch by not only dry firing tons and tons (with a snap cap. Occasional dry firing probably won't hurt anything, but sustained repeated dry-firing probably demands a snap-cap), but I also forced myself to focus on other fundamentals. I still, to this very day, think "FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT" every time I pull the trigger, and I still experiment with grip and stances. For me, focusing on those things helped take away the flinch, maybe it will for you too. You did right by asking for advice on THR. As a group, we are opinionated, stubborn and prone to arguing about the most minor of shooting minutea: However, there is a VAST pool of shooting smarts on THR, and you can count on getting good advice.

By the way, that dime drill is stellar... I started doing that a couple of months ago, and my double-action shooting has improved quite a bit as a result.

Timbo
 
Although I still haven't completely conquered the flinch, I've found that I flinch a lot less by doing two things:
1- Concentrating hard on the front sight. I remember when shooting a perfect bulls-eye, the thought in my head was "say, the dot on the front sight sure is round. I wonder if it's a perfect circ<BANG>"

2- Smooth, even trigger press. Once you've started the press, keep pressing evenly and smoothly. If you're concentrating hard on the front sight you'll also be less likely to anticipate the trigger break. The more of a 'surprise' break it is, the better. If you've been concentrating on the front sight when the trigger breaks, and the break was a surprise, the bullet should go exactly where the front sight was pointed.

It helps me to catch and fix my flinches by doing a few dry presses in between live fire. Sure, the guys next to you on the firing line will probably wonder why the heck you keep pressing the trigger over and over when your gun isn't shooting, but you're there to improve for yourself.
 
flinch less

Posting here just to register for the thread.
Good advice above. Will continue reading...
(says the K9/642 owner).

Nem
 
I too had a nasty flich issue with sidearms. I worked it out by dry firing at the TV, (make darn sure the gun is unloaded, check it again, then check it one more time) As you watch TV, follow the lead character with the front sight, maintain the sight picture, dryfire on the character every time they face you.

Second, when at the range, shoot slow, very slow. You main focus is to work out the flinch, not banging away aimlessly. Focus on sight picture, grip alignment, and the trigger. Your hand position and trigger interface sould be the same every singe time. Focus on these. If your grip changes, don't shoot, re-grip the gun. If you end up firing 1 round every two minutes, so be it. As you practice, your speed will increase, don't rush it, you are working on quality, not quantity.

Flinching can be controlled, I have worked on it enough that I can now shoot my .22 lr with out blinking and see the bullet strike in the scope.
 
If possible, try to shoot at an outdoor range. The report of your gun, as well as the surrounding shooters doesnt seem as loud, and less likely to make you jump. I know that after 22 years of shooting, I'm still likely to flinch after a short time, shooting in an indoor range!
 
Plenty and plenty of dry-fire helped with my flinch. Also, convincing yourself that the gun will not cause you any harm will help you over come a bit as well.

Anothing interesting feeling is to send a number of larger caliber rounds downrange, and then switch back the the 9mm. At one of my range outings, I shot 300 rounds out of my GI .45 and then switched to my Ruger and it felt like a .22 :D
 
I used the dime drill in basic with the M16 and always found it to be too easy, I'd say for pistol try it with the dime resting on top of the front site, once having it on the slide becomes too easy, I haven't tried this yet, my guns in two pieces half with me the other half at my folks so I can't try it for a while.
 
Nathan,
The flinch actually comes in two sub-types: a) anticipation of recoil and b) trying to grab the shot while the sights/target are just right. After 40+ years of shooting pistols seriously, including several years of Bullseye competition, I still have problems with "type b" especially. The solution as stated is the surprise fire. Try to apply pressure gradually so that you do not know exactly when the gun is going to fire. Yeah, sounds backward but the proof is in the doing.
Problem with dry firing is that your mind always knows whether the gun is loaded or not. Try the method suggested for intermixing dummy rounds in your mags and then mix the mags so you don't know which one has the dummy round. That is the test which will tell you whether you did or didn't flinch.
Another drill that helped me was to shoot at a blank piece of paper with NO target on it. Just align the sights correctly and apply pressure smoothly to the trigger while the sights are held in the general middle of the paper. Not having a target to distract you will allow more consistent sight alignment and trigger control. You will probably be very surprised at how small your group is and how close to the center of the paper it is. This will really teach you that it is sight alignment and trigger control that matters most for accurate Bullseye shooting. (Combat/self defense shooting may be a different thing.)

Good shooting and be safe.
LB
 
Several factors are involved with "flinching". The #1 factor is "anticipation". The pressure you are exerting on the trigger, even though you are doing your best to "squeeze", is sending a message to your brain that detonation is "about to happen", and you subconsciously adjust to that brain message.

How to rectify the "flinch factor"? Well, dry-firing is "okay", but it's probably better to "work through" with MORE live-fire. It might be better to drop down a notch, by firing a .22 pistol or revolver for awhile, so that you can work on the basics....breathing, sight picture, hold/grip, a steady squeeze of the trigger, locking your wrist and elbow, and allowing the recoil to gently lift the entirety of your "shooting arm", then settle back down on target. Work on your CONFIDENCE level while getting back to the basics!

Have a reliable, knowledgeable shooter monitor your shooting skills, and listen to their critique! It's better to put a halt to any bad habits as quickly as possible, instead of continuing to do them!

If your hearing protection isn't adequate, it's going to directly affect your "flinch factor". Try to become "deaf", by using ear inserts and ear "mufflers".

The ONLY way to accuracy is to NOT know when your firearm is going to "KA-BOOM". Hold that sight picture, breathe normally, and lock that wrist and elbow! The detonation point should be a total surprise to you!

Lastly, get plenty of sleep before going to the range. Don't drink coffee or tea for AT LEAST 30 minutes before shooting! Same goes for smoking!
Maybe do a short "wring-out" exercise before stepping up to the firing line. Take as many breaks as you can, so that muscle fatigue doesn't become a problem.

If your 25-yard groupings look terrible, it might be time to crank your target a bit closer! Study those holes, and try to collate them to how you were shooting at the time. We all have "flyers", but consider them as being part of the problem instead of merely thinking, "Oh, that was a flyer
BECAUSE......!"

Having a quality firearm, matched to the ammo that it likes the best, then matching those factors to YOU and your personal style of shooting makes quite a difference! Yes, there WILL be a difference between your "practise" ammo and what you will load in your firearm as "carry" ammo....so be sure to "familiarize" yourself with the characteristics of that "carry" ammo.

Above all, become a CONFIDENT shooter!
 
A good site for pistol shooting information is http://www.bullseyepistol.com download the Army Marksmanship Manual, its good information. I reread it every couple years and always find something I've forgot or need to do.

It’s really hard to shoot well if you don't have a good trigger, IE one that has a clean break, reasonable SA pull weight no more than 5 lbs (3-1/2 to 4lbs is better), no creep before the break, and minimal slack take up. Without a good trigger a "surprise break" is hard to obtain. I've found that in general the Ruger semi auto's have a pretty good trigger. My P90 has a smooth light DA, 4lb SA with minimal creep.
 
trigger creep

This continues to be an interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all.

I have several questions for clarification, including one about how to resolve shooting differences between pistols and revolvers (I have one of each), but today is a busy day (and tomorrow again), so for now just this:

Would someone mind defining/describing the phenomenon of "trigger creep"?

I have some intuitive notion, but am new enough to handguns (at least their proper study and use) that I'm still not sure exactly what it means (and am too lazy and busy at the moment to do a proper search :eek: .

Thanks. :)

Nem
 
Would someone mind defining/describing the phenomenon of "trigger creep"?
Click to expand...

"Slack" is the initial amount of free movement of the trigger to the point where it engages against the sear.

"Creep" is the movement of the trigger when under pressure after the slack has been taken up and before the hammer or striker releases.

A good trigger may have a little slack but once the squeeze begins there won't be any percieved movement before it breaks.
 
Interestingly, for me flinching with a rifle (and shotgun) was much easier to cure than with a pistol, in large part, I believe, because the trigger weights are so different. That factor aside, first, I absolutely forced myself to keep my eyes open while I shot, after just a very few times doing that, problem one was eliminated. Second, I learned to suck that gun up into my shoulder. Again, after absorbing a few shots with proper placement as opposed to improper placement, I learned that within reason, I had nothing to be afraid of. I have a bad shoulder to begin with, so recoil does actually effect me more than average, but I I had to see what my limits were (which means no 3 1/2 mag in the ol' 12 gauge. ever.). Third, and finally, I just shot alot. Not so much with my big guns, as price is prohibitive with a 7mm mag and a .270, but a lot with my 870 and TONS with my .22's, in addition to quite a bit with my SKS. In any event, while I still occasionally jerk a shot, the problem has more or less been cured.
 
for dang sure have ear and eye protection. and, when you go to your practice at the range, ignore what the other shooters are doing - as long as they are acting safely of course.

they, other shooters, are mostly there for the fun factor and will, tomorrow, enjoy telling others about how many hundred rounds they fired at the range yesterday.

don't get sucked into that - blasting away. you are there on a quest, to learn accurate shooting. shots fired cannot be recalled. where they are is where they are and it is best to concentrate on what you are going to do with the next one.

accurate handgun use is a skill that must be devoloped over a period of time. use your time to work at it. i know, blasting away is fun and i do my share, but, i do that After my serious work is finished.

Lordy, i hate to pick on another person's gun, and i apologize in advance, but no one else has mentioned this: your Ruger pistol is designed for offensive/defensive use, not target work, and is excellent at what it was designed for. those i have shot were smooth reliable operators and i admired them and made no complaint about 50 yard accuracy or lack thereof.
i thought they were at their best at 5 feet or so on silhouete double action. for a person that practices defensive shooting and makes no particular use of target shooting stance, sight alignment, blah blah, they are at their best.
get it out and put it to work on the BG. i settled on a G17 over a Ruger for capacity. 18 rounds of bad boys. one shot stop, hell, one magaziner stop sounds about right. a flurry of nines will stop a crowd from doing their deed.

people are fond of saying a gun is a tool, because it is true. one gun is for one thing, another gun is for something else. there are guns that do double duty. SnW revolvers come to mind. not the best in both worlds, but, certainly respectable. K19 is about top on the list and target 38s will surely fill a 10 ring at 50 yards in the hand of a "hard holder". .357s will do a satisfactory job on people and critters.

get the info from the Army Marksmanship Manual as suggested by another poster. that is good advice for anyone to take. i have a copy and have read it with great interest, several times. i helped get me past the 2600 "barrier" and stay well above it some 40+ years ago.

someone also said, in other words, that you could be "picking" at your trigger. meaning you wanted the gun to fire when when everything looks perfect, causing a little fudging of the gun. no matter how well aligned the sights or their position on the target, if you mess up on the release, all is for nought. so, don't stand there admiring your sight picture, get to work on that trigger.

and, don't despair. keep on working and it will come together for you.

good shooting.

HOS
 
Happy Old Sailor does make a good point about that Ruger not being a target pistol, but don't take that too far and assume that misses are the guns fault and not yours. For a defensive pistol, pin-point accuracy is often wasted, though certainly nice and always appreciated. A general rule of thumb that I use is that if you can consistently stick your shots into a paper plate at a reasonable range (say, 10 yard to 25 yards or so), your probably doing just peachy. For me, if I can do that, I am perfectly happy. If I want to shoot tighter groups, I break out the bull barrel MkII.
 
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