New GI pistol to fuel more crime

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tirod

Member
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
5,290
Location
SW MO
Would you believe: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2014/07/29/Army-s-New-Handgun-Weapon-Criminals

Which purports to blame the Army's request for replacement of the 1911 as the reason why multiple gunshot wounds went up.

Studying gunshot injuries in the D.C. area in the 1980s, Daniel Webster of Johns Hopkins University noticed an alarming trend – as time went on, more and more patients were arriving at the emergency room with multiple bullet wounds. In 1983, at the beginning of the study period, only about a quarter of gunshot patients had multiple injuries, but in the last two years of the study, that proportion had risen to 43 percent.

Said quote coming from another columnists article which actually makes the claim. And the study quoted made no effort to distinguish exactly what firearm was actually used in the shooting, or if it was legal self defense.

So, we have the resulting headline which is spurious at best. Criminals were not suddenly changing over to the new military issue firearm, what happened was that the market itself was already changing. The Army was actually being delinquent in that the nature of it's sidearm was already 30 years behind the times - plenty of other NATO allies had adopted double stack double action duty guns. We had just finally put pencil to paper and could no longer justify the expense of reworking them for the third time.

This is a great example of the convoluted reasoning that the antigunners use to justify their view - blame the good guys for expanding crime because they finally updated a little used sidearm nearing the end of it's service life.

And they are going to do it again, Oh Woe Is Us! We will now suffer even more hideous injuries because whatever the military uses will trickle down to the hands of criminals!

It's Clinton era thinking and exactly the reason he had the Army's inventory of 1911's cut up for scrap. Notwithstanding that 1) criminals tend to choose the same issue weapon as Police, which means 2) they tend to prefer Glocks. Not Berettas.

However, this study claims that crooks steal what is being sold on the market, and the .357 revolver was still riding high even in 1995. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

Somebody can't get their facts straight. Taking the findings at face value, tho, there was some reason that people were starting to pull the trigger a lot more, whatever it was that they were using. Since the majority of criminal shooters in the studies were born after 1960, and were coming of age prior to 1983, what could have influenced them to suddenly increase the number of shots they were taking? They would have been teens in the mid 1970's.

Well, it wasn't video games, Pong debuted in 1976. We wouldn't see active shooter games for another 15-20 years. Nope, what was going on were the Drug Wars of the 1980's, and a much larger number of cops pursuing the crooks. When gunfights occurred, cops weren't backing off or running like another rival gang may have chosen to do. And cops in that era were largely still carrying revolvers, not hi cap military duty guns.

In other words, some ignorant columnist once again has their conclusions based on an agenda, not fact or documented history, and the general public is once again completely misinformed by their propaganda.
 
But overall from the early 1990s to the early 2010s, the number people shot per 100,000 population per year went down by about 50%.

Using the link between replacing the M1911 with the M9 as a causative factor, as the article apparently did, one could argue that switch caused fewer people to be shot more times. Exactly how that is supposed to work is not clear. Unless you concede there is no causal link.
 
Yesterday may have been "industry day", but the Army still placed a quarter million dollar order for more M9s as well.
 
They have been sending most of those out as military aid. A large number went to Iraq a few years ago. The services aren't putting them into inventory, those unit gun racks are already full.

Check to see who the end users will be - contracts issued by the Fed aren't necessarily DOD items.

Intended point of the article linked is that military weapons are supposedly influencing crime on the street - it's the same lame excuse that M16's make school shooters go berserk. Looking at the fact, the AR isn't used all that much, and this is the same thing. The M9 isn't directly linked to causing that many more victims of gunshots, simply because they weren't actually used in crime to any large degree.

Because that is so obvious, the article writers then blamed military style weapons as causing the rise in gunshots - and yet that isn't proven, either. Saying that the rising number of large capacity guns created the immediate rise in wounds isn't shown by any statistics or facts - it's actually coincidental and the majority of handguns in use at the time were still revolvers.

It's all just speculative propaganda on their part to justify the anti gun agenda.
 
They have been sending most of those out as military aid. A large number went to Iraq a few years ago. The services aren't putting them into inventory, those unit gun racks are already full.
I was talking to a MSgt yesterday that's a Senior Instructor. He was telling me on his last deployment in Iraq how pissed he was to be handing out Glocks (and some Walthers) to Iraqis, while he was stuck with his crappy M9.
 
IMO, civilian small arms have more influence on military small arms, not the other way around.

When you shoot a .357 mag, no reason to shoot again. :)
 
ironically they neglect to mention that in that same time period "crack" aka "rock" cocaine came into its own and fueled drug wars on the streets.
 
This article has some serious logical problems. It attempts to draws a correlation between the adoption of the M9 and a spike in crime (which apparently didn't take place). Then it goes on to say that prior to the M9, the revolver was the popular weapon. See where they blew it? The M9, a double action, short recoil semi-automatic 9mm replaced a single, action, short recoil semi-automatic .45ACP...not a revolver.

Any attempt at logic is blown there. This is a piece of "info-tainment" slap-dashed together by some hack as a news item that might appeal to some anti-gun people so they'd read the piece and...here's the key...click on through to whatever products were advertised on the page.

That about the size of it. Probably would have sold more stuff if they'd done an article about Kate Upton, albeit to a different target market.
 
I made a comment on the originating article pointing out that the 92 had been around since '75 long before the study started and that the study failed to account for the source of the rise in violence, the narcotics wars/poverty, AND further failed to look at the period afterwards where violent crime fell continuously over the subsequent 2 decades while the variety and popularity of the same general type of handgun increased to be the predominant type in the face of plummeting homicide rates.
 
The Army was actually being delinquent in that the nature of it's sidearm was already 30 years behind the times - plenty of other NATO allies had adopted double stack double action duty guns.

High-capacity semi-automatic handguns arrived long before NATO... John Moses Browning's other great design is the Browning Hi-Power (aka the M1935) which was issued by both the allies and the Nazis during WW2, with 13-round double-stack magazines.

I'm also pretty sure that homicide rates have been in general decline in the US for the last couple of decades. And that according to FBI reports, the most common type of firearm used in homicides is still a revolver. The relatively pricey Beretta and Browning should be nowhere near the top of the list.
 
Sounds reasonable enough to me as I have often suspected the U.S. Army was behind any number of conspiracy theories. I would add that they could have also blamed the increase of multiple gunshot wounds on solar flare ups, the phases of the moon, or global warming and I would have been equally comfortable with those explanations as well.
 
ironically they neglect to mention that in that same time period "crack" aka "rock" cocaine came into its own and fueled drug wars on the streets.
Bingo. You can always come up with statistics to support an anti-gun agenda if you ignore all the other factors. We do it some on our side, too, but the antis have made a professional sport of it.
 
I've been putting on some extra weight lately. Based the premise of this article I guess I need to throw out all of my large spoons and forks.
 
It was during the 80's that the 'Wonder Nines' came along(BHP's aside. 14 in a CF Inglis mag) and the assorted gang bangers decided their ma hood depended on the size of their illegally acquired firearms.
"...had the Army's inventory of 1911's cut up for scrap..." Most of which were worn to the point of not being fiscally repairable.
"...replacing the M1911 with the M9..." The M9 was adopted for political reasons just like the M-14 and M-16. Other NATO countries were complaining about the balance of trade in military kit. U.S. was sending far more kit to Europe than the Europeans were sending Stateside.
 
But overall from the early 1990s to the early 2010s, the number people shot per 100,000 population per year went down by about 50%.
Ya think it could be greedy people absorbing more than their fair share of bullets and leaving none for other victims?:p
 
Part of the argument's sound, but misses the point; does it really matter if someone is shot once or twice? The fact is that violent force was leveled against them for some reason, and that's all that matters. Human ingenuity will fill in the rest, and become more effective as time marches on. Predicating your public policy on maintaining ignorance and inability in its members is doomed to failure, being fundamentally at odds with human nature.

Yes, when repeating arms were developed, multiple shot victims probably increased. Yes, when smokeless powder was developed, fatalities from shots probably rose (then dropped after antibiotics). Yes, when semi-auto pistols, with optimized bullets, sights, ergonomics, reliable designs, and high capacity magazines were developed, the fruit of over 100 years of focused human genius directed toward creating the perfect sidearm to grant the power of intuitive lethal force-at-distance to those who might need it, the number and severity of bullet wounds on targets will go up. But that is completely missing the point.

Blaming technology for the world's problems. Seeking to seclude knowledge and technology in the cloistered halls of authority. Aiming to limit human potential and evolution in the belief it can only do ill. What a repugnant belief system for an academic.

TCB
 
Has anybody considered that maybe the bad guys (or the cops) are getting better, i.e., more accurate?

NYC cops seem to have avoided that trend though. :rolleyes:
 
Has anybody considered that maybe the bad guys (or the cops) are getting better, i.e., more accurate?

NYC cops seem to have avoided that trend though
I don't see how you can say that. Whenever there's a shootout, they seem to be able to hit all the innocent bystanders.:p
 
As the number of shots wasn't separated into those fired by the Police, or armed security, over those fired by criminals, the logic exhibited would also hold the Police responsible for the number of shots fired. The Police were the ones who really piled onto the "Wondernine" bandwagon.

Actually, using the logic displayed in the article, there is a necessity exhibited to reduce Police firepower. Hmmmmm, probably NOT what they want to hear, huh?
 
And yet Bloomberg was adamant that ONLY the NYPD should have guns -- to the point of not allowing the National Guard into the city to assist during Hurricane Sandy.

Of course, Bloomie's also the guy who preaches Global Warming <tm> will cause rising sea levels -- and failed to provide the subway system with watertight doors, or even sandbagged entrances, so some of the subways flooded during that storm.
 
Besides the obvious, what drives the younger criminal element toward hi-cap pistols is watching the hero's in police shoot-'um-up dramas on TV and in movies. They are about the only training they can get, and all those bullets flying around is inspirational. :uhoh:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top