New in-line - Recoil Reduction

[WBNH]

Question all...

Researching Modern In-lines but am Recoil Sensitive. My main hunting rifle for the Maine woods - shots under 60 yds - is a .357 lever action firing 158 grain JHP deer rounds. Almost no recoil there. Would like to know if the following would work if I were to pick up a new T/C triumph for this fall.

I've noticed, while loads vary per individual and what the firearm likes, on average people seem to be using two 50 grain Pyrodex or 777 pellets and a 250 grain sabotted bullet.

While recoil can be reduced by adding weight to the firearm, it seems to be more effectively reduced by dropping the weight of the projectile and powder charge.

For powder charge: Pyrodex pellets come in 30 and 50 grain. Is two 30 grain pellets too weak for anything but paper targets? Can one of each be used form an 80 grain load? Or are you warned against mixing and matching? Would three 30 grain pellets be any significant recoil reduction over two 50 grain?

For Projectiles: Hornaday XTP's in 250-300 grains seems to be popular paired with a sabot. I noticed in reloading supplies you can buy Hornaday XTP's in bulk in 185 grain.

Would this paired with a harvester sabot - perhaps an 80 grain charge, be a decent recipe for low recoil? Could it take deer (again Maine woods shots under 60 yds.)

Thanks for any advice...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

in line charges and recoil

Ok, think about it for a minute. Billy Dizxon used a load of 90 grains of black powder and a 450 grain bullet to knock an Indian off a horse at 7/8 of a mile. 100 grains of powder and a 300 grain bullet is pretty much a long range 45-100 or 45-90 type buffalo load. Do you need that in the Main woods? Will you be shooting at animals 200 yds away? Keep in mind that both the British War Department and the US Gov't felt that 60 grains of powder and a 450 grain minnie ball was deadly on humans to 250 yds. Now also keep in mind that your 250 grain bullet isn't much heavier than a 50 cal round ball. Short light bullets lose substantially more energy as they travel down range as their longer heavier big brothers.

I can knock over 500 meter rams with 65 grains of powder and a 500 grain .457 bullet out of an original trapdoor Springfield. (45-70) load. The standard factory 45-90 load was a 90 grains of powder and a 300 grain 457 bullet.

You don't need more than 60 to 80 grains and a bullet for any deer. If you want to add range, use a longer heavier bullet.

A 44 mag shoots a 230 or 240 grain bullet. short and fat. Unstable past 100 yds, starts pitching and yawling. Slows doen real fast. What will a 250 grain 50 cal bullet do down range. Not much better.

Out to 100 yds, a 250 grain bullet over 80 grains will take any deer and probably even pass through.

I don't know why so many folks think they need long range Buffalo loads for eastern woodland deer.

Also keep in mind that the substitutes are "hotter" in pressure than old fashioned black powder. So recoil of 80 grains of substitute will kick more than 80 grains of black.

A lot of folks I know still hunt with a side lock and patched round ball and only 60 or 70 grains. If you can take a deer with a little 357 rifle, you can more assuredly take one with 60 grains and a 250 bullet.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Thats Sage advice there !

In a nuttshell , this man knows what he's talkin about , advice wisely taken by you I hope on your In-line endeavors .

Das Jaeger

 

[Hawkeye748]

Very good advice. Quite frankly, I use a target load for hunting white tail. Richmond rifle, 58 cal., 46 grains of FFFg goex under a 470 grain bullet. Taken deer out to 125 yards, one shot quick kills, no tracking. Why beat yourself up if you don't have to.

I will disagree the that the 44 is unstable beyond a 100 yards, maybe in 44 mag, but not others. In 44-40, Rested groups of 4-6" at 250 yards are common in my Henry and Ballard. You just have to match the bullet, powder charge and twist. I use 28 to 30 grains of FFFg under a 240 grain hard cast bullet.

 

[TomADC]

A 44 mag shoots a 230 or 240 grain bullet. short and fat. Unstable past 100 yds, starts pitching and yawling. Slows doen real fast. What will a 250 grain 50 cal bullet do down range. Not much better.

I have to agree with Hawkeye748 if this was true how in the world do those guys knock down those little steel rams at 200 yds?

 

[mykeal]

zimmerstutzen's advice is generally good; it's too bad he didn't read the op's entire post. The man wasn't talking about 200 yard shots.

Answering his questions specifically, and noting his parameters of recoil sensitivity and 60 yard shots:

Is two 30 grain pellets too weak for anything but paper targets?

Absolutely not. 60 gr under a .50 cal roundball (.495, 180 gr) with decent shot placement at 60 yards is entirely sufficient for a one-shot whitetail kill. I would personally prefer at least 70 gr, however.

Can one of each be used form an 80 grain load?

Yes.

Would three 30 grain pellets be any significant recoil reduction over two 50 grain?

No. It would be noticeable, but barely.

For Projectiles: Hornaday XTP's in 250-300 grains seems to be popular paired with a sabot. I noticed in reloading supplies you can buy Hornaday XTP's in bulk in 185 grain.

Would this paired with a harvester sabot - perhaps an 80 grain charge, be a decent recipe for low recoil? Could it take deer (again Maine woods shots under 60 yds.)

I'd go with 70 grains and be confident. It's almost my .50 cal roundball load. Of course, you can't get a 70 gr load with the currently available pellet combinations, which is a good argument for going to loose powder.

 

[WBNH]

Thanks

Thanks for the speedy replies.

I only hunt the Maine woods - no long range shots, no scopes - and the .357 lever action is my go to brush-gun.

I like the flexibility to extend the season that muzzleloading affords, and some of your replies have me rethinking the modern in-line and maybe considering traditional. Fortunately I have the Kittery Trading Post nearby (1000's of arms on the racks) and I can get a look at anything I desire.

Admittedly the T/C Triumph is attractive. If I go that route, I'll paper test a number of combos, but hopefully the light 185 grain Hornaday over a fifty and thirty pellet (80 grain charge) won't be any more noticable on the shoulder than the .357 or my 20 gauge.

I've got Thompson Center headquarters twenty miles up the road, and their neighbor (Fox Ridge Outfitters) serves as their factory custom shop...might just wander up there to see if I can convince myself of their Hawken in lieu of the in-line.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

in lines

guys knock down those little steel rams at 200 yds?
Sure they do. Not with the average flat nose or hollow point bullets

And the average bullets sold in factory loads, depending on nose shape, do start to wobble after 100 yds. But even 200 yds, is still short range when it comes to distance shooting. The 44 mag is certainly no 500 or 1,000 meter proposition.

And, even a round ball has a certain aerodynamic efficiency which isnt present in some of those high price Super Whomper in-line bullets I've seen for sale.

I'll admit that perhaps the 44 doesn't appreciably start wobbling until it passes 150 yds. But those guys shooting sillywets are'nt shooting the average loads and bullets. I shoot a 44-40 and can tell the difference between 100 yds with flat nose bullets and round nose bullets, of nearly the same weight. The flat nosed bullets are punching slightly oval holes and the group is 2x larger.

 

[mykeal]

Ok, but the thread is still about 60 yards or less. How is all that helpful?

 

[Ginormous]

The Rand Elite Recoil Shield from Buffalo Arms. Works with loads appropriate for 10 yards or 2000 yards.

All day shooting at the range with one of these is a piece of cake too. Seriously.

With this under a hunting jacket in the Maine woods, you'd relieve yourself of the nagging worry of felt recoil, making for a much more pleasant hunt regardless of the load you settle on.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1467.html



I think both the cold prickly and warm fuzzy denizens of this forum would agree, hunting doesn't have to hurt.

 

[BCRider]

That pad looks great. I'm going to look into those.

Also to the OP, I'm a black powder newbie of the most green sort but in my first few shots I was noticing how much more pleasant that the BP is compared to my smokeless cartridge guns. The smokeless goes CRACK! while BP seems to more or less go FOOMP! with a far softer build and longer push. I'd really suggest looking at either the true blue... er... true black powder or whichever Pyrodex or 777 option provides the closest similarity to an honest to gosh load of black. Your shoulder, jaw and whatever else is recoil sensitive will thank you for this. By all means vary the load as per what the folks above said but then also look at how best to achieve the closest burn pattern similarity to Holy Black that you can.

 

[TomADC]

I bought the Past magnum recoil pad like that and it helped a bunch shooting my trapdoor.

 

[Ginormous]

I love mine. I usually get tired of shooting the clays long before my shoulder gets tired of the shotgun.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Cremudgeons

Ok, but the thread is still about 60 yards or less. How is all that helpful?
Today 01:47 PM

------------

Do you need a big hug today or what ? The guy was and is just tryin to be helpful , give him a break would ya . :banghead:
If nothin else , it was very informative to me , so back off would ya ? Play nice or please go away would ya . Were suppose to help eachother here , not condecend everything anyone says like you do , right ? This is just like ML's angry demeaner , not helpful here , so stop .

Das Jaeger

 

[arcticap]

There's some other options for those who are recoil sensitive.

1. Harvester and MMP sabots make sabots for .40 caliber/10mm bullets that fit .50 caliber bores. Hornady makes a .40 caliber 200 grain XTP having better sectional density than a 185 grain .430 bullet which shouldn't add much of any noticiable recoil. But I wouldn't recommend any .40 caliber bullet below 200 grains for big Maine deer that can weigh up to 300 lbs..

http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...ion=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=f1d58bf89dd6a92a56e614f6742a13ee

2. Because of the new heavier .40 caliber/10mm hunting bullets, there has been renewed interest in .45 caliber inlines because they can recoil less, but the barrels can also be heavier.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

in-line recoil

As far as 60 yd hunting I stick by the last part of my post.

"A lot of folks I know still hunt with a side lock and patched round ball and only 60 or 70 grains. If you can take a deer with a little 357 rifle, you can more assuredly take one with 60 grains and a 250 bullet."


And while there are indeed some narrower caliber bullets to be fired with sabots. Check your state laws first. Here in the Keystone People's Republic, a muzzleloader bullet/ball for deer must be at least 44 cal.

 

[WBNH]

Maine is a bit more generous:

"Only muzzleloading firearms that are 40 caliber or greater and capable of firing only a single charge may be used to hunt deer during this season.

Muzzleloading firearm means a firearm that is capable of being loaded only through the muzzle; is ignited by a matchlock, wheel lock, flintlock, or caplock, including an in-line caplock or shotgun or rifle primer mechanism; has a rifled or smooth-bored barrel capable of firing only a single charge; propels a ball, bullet, or charge of shot; and may have any type of sights, including scopes."

not generous in seasons though...

"Firearms season: November 2, 2009 through November 28, 2009
Muzzleloader season: November 30, 2009 through December 5, 2009 - may be extended to December 12 in some management areas."

So the season is pretty short regardless. Saving up the vacation time for 2 or 3 three-day weekends...(But you can't hunt Sundays in Maine!!!)...

Now that the old hillside is being developed...the hunt is on for new grounds. I've explored some public lands within an easy drive, but am weary of bumping in to too many people. Lots of trucks parked there last fall...

Won't stop putting in the legwork necessary to get some hunting in, but they sure make it difficult in New England...What hunters are left are confined in smaller and tighter tracts...and there are fewer hunters every year. It's just not being passed down.

 

[Hawkeye748]

I really think for 60 yards, you would be better satisfied with Real BP. You can then work your loads and charge to fit your gun very closely. For that range shot, you will have endless projectiles to choose from. From my understanding, the plastic Sabots to group very well require heavier charges. If you are looking for reduced recoil, use a lead ball, or one of the lead Buffalo bullets available. Should get an effective and satisfactory load for deer in the 50-60 grains of BP.

Another advantage of real BP is that Pyrodex generally degrades in performance over a short period of time. Folks down south complain it requires either a new bottle or working up new loads from year to year. What little experience I have had is that it loses about 10% or so over the summer. BP if stored in its original can will shoot the same 10 years from now.

zimmerstutzen

The problem you are experiencing is the one I discovered several years ago. Commercial 44-40 are pistol rounds, not rifle rounds. Commercial 44-40 bullets are undersized in the bullet diameter and under powered. I discussed this with a Winchester Rep. The bullets are designed so that the company will reduce their exposure if they are used in older pistols that are not as "Tight" as they used to be or had not been well cared for in the past.

The 44 mag. round started as a pistol round. I suspect that if you checked, the bullets are a little under sized and OVER powered for effective rifle performance at a distance. Use a lead bullet and play with the powder charge, both down and up, I bet you will improve the performance of your 44 Mag. at distances beyond 150 yards.

I hand load my BP 44-40 and have no doubt they will shoot effectively to 250 yards or a bit further. I don't claim it is a 500 plus yard gun. Experiment a little and you will find out how good the 44-40 round will be.

 

[arcticap]

What little experience I have had is that it loses about 10% or so over the summer.

Maybe some folks are allowing it to absorb moisture, but losing 10% velocity that rapidly after the container has been opened hasn't been much of a concern with new production Pyrodex. Plus Pyrodex P is more potent than Pyrodex RS per volume.
Since the weather can be cold in Maine during muzzle loading deer season, wearing a jacket will provide some additional padding for the felt recoil.

 

[bejay]

think if you went with loose powder you should be able to lower the load to where recoil wouldnt be much of a concern would do that first before changing bullet weights.
while pellets are popular I couldnt get any decent groups out of them so i had to switch to powder to get better accuracy all you need is a powder measure and a couple of speed loaders and it will load just as fast in any hunting situation when you have the powder already measured in your speed loader.
if you do decide to go with a traditional instead of an inline you will likely have to use powder as you wont get reliable ignition out of pellets with percusion caps the older percusion inlines ive tried using them in failed to ignite the pellets most of the time.

 

[Hawkeye748]

Articap,

I store it in its original container and screw the lid down tight. It sits in the same closet and powder chest as my BP and smokeless powders.

I don't believe it is Moisture but simple contact with the air. I am not a chemist or expert. I just know what the results are in the guns. It just seems to start losing potency from day one. Others here have expressed the same concerns.

It also is much harder to get ignition in the chamber with the substitutes, particularly Pyrodex. More misfires and hang fires with the pyrodex. With BP, when I have a misfire, it is usually MY FAULT, not the powder or caps.

If I have to use a substitute BP, I use the Triple 7 grainular powder. I have had much better luck with it than Pyrodex. You can tailor your loads much better with this product than the Pyrodex pellets.

My view on the substitutes is this:

BP is the best option out there if available. Since its introduction, BP substitutes are constantly changing and modifying their make up/formula, ignition methods, etc. to correct perceived problems. BP and the Flintlock/percussion system work without changes. Why fix what isn't broke?

The reason to behind substitutes are mainly two fold:

A. They want to make it "easier" to use for the "Typical" shooter. Point blank, these guns were not designed for today's typical shooter. They are not for the lazy shooter, but for serious shooters. With the Substitutes, You will still have to clean and take care of your guns just like you would with BP. Supository guns can be shot, put up in the cabinet and next year, the barrel will not be rusted out. These guns need a little TLC daily. We on the "dark side" are usually more dedicated to our sport than "typical" shooters today. We need more converts. But until science devises a powder that is effective, non-corrosive, etc., you are trying to re-invent the wheel. It is just not necessary.

B. The other problem is literally a governmental idiocy. BP is classified as an explosive. Substitutes are classed as a propellent. The only difference is the low ignition point of BP when compared to the higher ignition point for the substitutes. The result is in the different license and storage requirements. The substitutes can sit on the store shelf for the public to walk by and pick up. The BP has to be kept in a vault, away from the public, a certain distance from a variety of things, etc. The facts are that basically equal parts of Substitute and BP have the same energy if made into a bomb. It is no more dangerous to store in a store than substitutes. But the extra cost of licenses and storage requirements keep the smaller shops from keeping BP as a stock item.

If you are going to shoot these guns, go with the best option available Black Powder. I know some have difficulty finding the real thing, so they go with what they can get. There is a move out now to try and get Congress to re-classify BP on an equal basis with the substitutes. If it goes through, see how long the substitutes stay available.

 

[arcticap]

I don't believe it is Moisture but simple contact with the air. I am not a chemist or expert. I just know what the results are in the guns. It just seems to start losing potency from day one. Others here have expressed the same concerns.

1. Neither Pyrodex or any other powder is intitially vacuum packed so it's exposed to air since the day it was made.

2. If Pyrodex does routinely undergo a loss of potency, then I would expect that with the vast number of inexpensive chronographs in existence, that there would be widespread scientific evidence documenting such a potency loss.
But I have not seen any evidence about it.
None, nada, zilch.
That's not to say that it can't go bad. It's just that it does not commonly go bad and the evidence to establish that it routinely does is lacking.
Pyrodex does need to be compressed to work well and that's understood. If it's not compressed consistently then it simply doesn't shoot as well.

3. The theory that Pyrodex loses its potency without scientific evidence is a sort of a red herring.
A stronger primer can also deliver more power & velocity by burning powder more efficiently & completely.

4. Black powder is more hazardous to shoot with because of it's propensity to rapidly conflagurate when it comes in contact with a hot ember or spark which the substitute powders aren't able to do.
I mention this to simply illustrate the fact that every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
What's required to shoot a flintlock or a sidelock isn't necessarily what's required to shoot an inline using a 209 primer.
Choosing which powder to shoot with is an individual choice and there's no right or wrong, just scientific facts, gut instinct and personal perspective.

 

[Hawkeye748]

Choosing which powder to shoot with is an individual choice and there's no right or wrong, just scientific facts, gut instinct based and personal perspective.

I agree 100%.

I am relating what me and my friends have experienced. It is my opinion BP is much better. I both teach BP shooting, hunt and shoot competition. In teaching, this is where I have most of my experience with substitutes. Triple 7 is proving to be the best of the subs, but still does not out perform BP. ALL of the 4-H State Champions in this state shoot BP, not substitutes. And those that tried to use opened left over sub-powder over the winter found every year that their charge had to be adjusted to get the same groups. Most of these kids shot inlines with the 209 primers.

The adult shooters who hunt, have had the same experience. Last year's substitute doesn't work like it did new out of the can. We have confirmed this with Chronographs.

I seriously doubt locally I will get much more anecdotal evidence from local hunters. In this state, They have changed the "primitive weapon" description to include any single shot or double barrel rifle with an exposed hammer larger than 38 caliber. It no longer has to be of a pre 1890 design. They have even eliminated the BP/Substitute requirement. Everyone(Except us hardcores) is now going to off the shelf 444 Marlins and 45-70 ammunition. The season in my book has lost its purpose or aim.

I think WBNH would be better served using BP if it is available with Lead ball or lead "Buffalo bullet" with a 50-60 grain load. If BP is not an option, Granular Triple 7 I believe would work better than Pyrodex. He should be able to tailor a load for his gun with low recoil that is very effective for the ranges he intends to shoot. I know there is BP available in Maine because Maine Powder House is in Limington ME. Friends have ordered from them from time to time. I don't know how close that is to WBNH, but it is at least in the same state.

Pyrodex does need to be compressed to work well and that's understood. If it's not compressed consistently then it simply doesn't shoot as well.

All of these substitutes need to be compressed consistently to work properly. So does BP. The trick for great groups is to do things the same way every time.

I enjoy these discussions and hearing others opinions as long as we don't get insulting.

 

[mykeal]

I must disagree with one point.

Triple Seven must NOT be compressed to work properly. It is sensitive to overcompression, often failing to ignite if that happens. the projectile should be firmly seated with enough force to ensure it is sitting on the powder but no more. The more force you use, the more likely it is you will get an FTF.

The following statement is from the Hodgdon 777 web site:

Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder...Do not heavily compress powder charges...Seat the projectile firmly against the powder .