Next Pistol To Add to My Classes

[MagnumDweeb]

Hi all. I'm an NRA Pistol Instructor. I teach on two properties and do a swift bit of business in the range of twenty to forty people a month (depending on the rotation of properties). I'm getting ready to start on a third property to teach classes. I've acquired a number of pistols purely for the classes. Aside from a couple Taurus 94s, Heritage Rough Rider .22lrs(they are actually fairly good), Norinco 9mm Tokarevs(each may have a thousand rounds through them with my classes and still going strong, a couple Taurus PT 92s, a couple Ruger P89s, and some odds and ends like a Bersa Thunder 9 ultra compact 9mm(students seem to like it and order it from my FFL guys at a rate of two to three students a month), a Glock 23, Romanian Tokarevs, a Ruger P90...well you get the idea more or less.

So I'm looking at adding another pistol that merely isn't another .22lr(I write up each use .22lr pistol in the class as $5 figured into the net so every forty uses of the .22lr I try to add another one which is usually a Heritage). I'd like to add more guns that are CCW central. I'm looking at a Ruger LCP, I do bulk orders on ammuntion and always store some ammo away so i've got around 1.5k .380 auto. I've had great luck selling the ammo at gunshows for $5 a box over what I paid for it (get it for less than $15, sell it for less than $20 which is better than $40 that others are offering) but with things winding down a little I'd like to add a Ruger LCP as I can get one for less than $300. I thougth about a S&W 642 or 638 but I don't think they'll hold up like the Ruger and Ruger as I udnerstand it has a better policy about repairing their guns.

I'm looking at Taurus 85s as I have personal experience with those and have had great luck. I 'm staying away from Kel-tecs, nothing against the gun this pistol would be fired a likely 100rds once a month and I'm trying to market the firearm for my FFL guys to get them more sales (one hand washes another). My FFL guys do their sales 10% above wholesale(which is a big difference from all the gunshops around me), $10 for the NCIS and such, $30 for the finders commission(my cut more or less) and then a 7% slapped on top for sales tax. Even on kel-tecs we save the consumer close to a $100 and on the more pricer items like S&W the savings are at least $100 but on items like the NIB 627 PC it's been more than a few hundred dollars. It's all above board and students will complain that purchase and pickup are at least a week apart(to cover the three day wait and shipping, and when I can be there with the FFL guys so they aren't alone).

All said the choices right now are the Ruger LCP(I just don't like the LCR after I've handled and got to shoot one, something doesn't rub me right and I'm a big fan of Ruger products normally), and Taurus 85. The critieria is that the gun must be able to handle a +P round, have a good warranty for repair(even If I have to wait six months), and run less than $400 or just slightly above(most of my students are first time newbs who may not likely need absolute top of the line but still need good and reliable). And on a by and by, when I use ammo for the classes I write it up at cost so if a box of .380 auto runs me $15, that's what I charge the students(my mom's a CPA and it keeps the taxes simpler she tells me).

I'm just trying to find that golden mean where I'm helping new shooters while helping myself at the same time. Good business to help one's self while helping others I figure.

 

[trickyasafox]

A ruger sp101 might not be a bad idea if your willing to consider a non taurus option for the 38. You said you liked Ruger, so why not try them again? You already have a Bersa, but why not also look at their 380- its an extremely popular gun. Also- the Taurus 738 slim is out and reasonably available as another 380 to consider.

 

[NMGonzo]

sp101 gets my vote.

 

[Dambugg]

I have nothing bad to say about taurus guns. But If I was going to put a lot of shells through a small revolver, Ruger would be my first choice. So another vote for a snubbie 101.

 

[Nicodemus38]

i have a question for the op here.

are you using shooting ranges run by the FFLs you have students buy guns from?
is students purchasing guns from the FFLs part of using their ranges?
are you getting any kickbacks from from the FFLs for steering future customers to them?

aside, im happy that someone is using wheel guns and taurus products in ccw coursework and for shooting classes. everything in my area is all 100% budget 22lr autopistols in the "small/microsize" frame that 10 year olds can barely grip.

an option would be to let students borrow pistols from people they know to use for the class. had a friend learn to shoot using their brothers luger. when he did the ccw course he had to use a worn out microscopic size 22lr to do the shooting tests with.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Nicodemus38, on the properties I got official letters from the local city halls for property owners saying it's legal to discharge firearms in the property (10 miles from a city, no nearby schools, etc. etc. etc.), than mailed a copy to the local sheriff's department to get a letter saying it's legit from them. There are more details to it than that but I can't give away all my trade secrets, feel free to contact your local law enforcement and ask questions and learn the way I did:banghead:.

One of the property owners has an FFL on his property when he owned a farm supply store(he's had an FFL since 72' he's told me), and I know another FFL guy who runs his out of his carpentry shop (he does custom stocks and grips). If I bring them a customer and the customer makes a buy I get $30. I always try my best to inform the student and avoid directing them to what whoever is trying to sell right there and then. My students are never required to buy from the FFL guys but I usually carry wholeseller catalogues with me and when the students see the savings...well capitalism at its finest. Why pay an $150 for a Glock when you don't have to, and still have it all be legal and Kosher.

I tell people they can bring their own guns if they'd like but most of these people are completely virgin and have come to me by word of mouth, I don't advertise, and my good practice of fair dealings, helpful and kind attitude, etc. etc. keeps folks talking about me.

I can't believe I forgot about the Ruger Sp101, maybe because I want one for myself. Maybe if I could get a deal on getting two lol. Or just get one in 3" and use it for myself on CCW so I can honestly say I trust it. The Taurus PT 738 as I understand it amongst it the PT 709 as well is that they aren't rated for +P and I don't like the idea of marketing those to my students. I realize that's not the most honest thing but I do caveat that I don't know everything, so I'll have to look into it.

Now that I've mulled it over I'll go with the Ruger Sp101 .357 in 3" If I can get it for less than $350(which I think I can). Had some good dealings yesterday and my budget is $800. A friend of mine supposedly knows a rich kids who inherited his uncles gun shop collection and is looking to liquidate it with the right folks so I may be getting some deals this weekend hopefully. I'll post pics(granted bad phone camera pics) on what I get if I get. I'm glad folks could help, thanks, sometimes my finger on the pulse of public is not always what I trust. I was going to get a Taurus 85 but the Ruger makes more sense.

Okay so I'm set on the Ruger, what's the next best thing to get.

 

[Sam1911]

Hi all. I'm an NRA Pistol Instructor. .... I've acquired a number of pistols purely for the classes. ... a couple Taurus 94s, Heritage Rough Rider .22lrs ..., Norinco 9mm Tokarevs ..., a couple Taurus PT 92s, a couple Ruger P89s, ... a Bersa Thunder 9 ultra compact 9mm..., a Glock 23, Romanian Tokarevs, a Ruger P90...

I have a very serious question, and I don't mean to be judgmental at all, so please don't feel I'm being critical:

If you're teaching an introductory handgun class, why do you choose to use such a wide variety of oddball and niche guns? You have several thousand dollars worth of firearms there, but seem to have skipped almost any of the more popular firearms currently on the market.

I don't have any quarrel with Tauruses or Ruger autos or almost any of your other choices, per se, and they are all undeniably cheap, but it seems a bit odd to set out to introduce new shooters to the world of firearms while making what would almost appear to be a deliberate attempt to avoid the most common weapons available today.

Again, I'm not knocking your guns. But if I were to set out to instruct folks to shoot handguns, I'd probably pick a selection something like:
1) Ruger Mk II or III -- .22 LR
2) Glock 17 and/or M&P 9mm and/or xD 9mm (you've got the G23, that's cool)
3) S&W Model 10 or 64 or other .38 -- or a reliable Taurus similar model
4) .45 1911
5) Some DA/SA auto -- earlier S&W, SIG, Beretta, Ruger etc.(You've more than got this covered with a whole pile of Ruger autos.)
6) Kel Tec or Ruger LCP or other micro.

Not that these are the greatest guns for everyone, or for all purposes, but some training with each of those families of weapons would give your students familiarity with a huge variety of the most common guns they're likely to encounter -- or to want to purchase.

I guess what I'm saying is, if I went to a professional firearms instructor for an introductory class, and he handed me a Tokarev -- but didn't have a 1911 for me to shoot -- or we shot a Bersa but not a quality centerfire revolver -- I'd be wondering why.

So, I guess, I'd say skip adding any more Heritages, or Bersas, or archaic Soviet bloc service pistols (!), or Ruger autos -- and think about adding some of the guns that larger numbers of shooters seem to be interested in buying.

Yes, I'd say a Kel Tec or LCP and one of the small Khar choices would make a nice addition. Some folks do seem to have decent success with Taurus revolvers and the 85 might work fine (though considering that police trade-in S&W Model 64s have been selling for under $200, why bother with the risk of Taurus' oft-lamented lemons and abysmal customer (dis)service?). I couldn't teach new shooters without at least one decent 1911. The Glock 23 experience would be more robust if your students got some trigger time with another version or two of the striker-fired family (M&P and/or xD), probably in 9mm. A police-trade-in SIG would help out those folks who prefer their gun feels more like gripping a potato D) -- and so forth. The SP101 is a cool choice, and if you want a durable snub-nose, that's a great one. I'd still get a Model 64 or something similar for a full-sized wheelgun.

Even if you had to trade off a few of the duplicates to build up your selection, it would be worth it to fill in those gaps.

IMHO.

Good luck with your classes!

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

DUPE? Weird.

 

[Sport45]

If you're teaching an introductory handgun class, why do you choose to use such a wide variety of oddball and niche guns? You have several thousand dollars worth of firearms there, but seem to have skipped almost any of the more popular firearms currently on the market.

I agree with Sam. Are you trying to introduce the "virgins", as you say, to a wide variety of handguns or just trying to get an income tax deduction for your collection by using them for the class? I don't have a problem with it either way, but knowing would help guide the answers. If it was purely for introducing new shooters to handguns I'd probably have nothing but Ruger MKII or 22/45's and Glock17's or XD9's. If was to amortize and write off my collection the sky would be the limit.

 

[JEB]

good choice on the sp101 (i have a 3" in .357 mag and love it!). as far as what you should get next, my vote goes to the glock 19. as far as size and capacity, it is quite possibly one of the best ccw weapons available.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

The guns I have with the exception of the Heritage Rough Riders I acquired used in private sales from folks needing money that didn't want to get ripped off by the local gunshops. Those same folks have sent me a good half of my students so I think it was a wise investment. The firearms were not my first choice but I could rationalize each acquisition and I only started in February. I got each gun for half of what I would have paid new and in some cases used. I use .22lr revolvers to do the shooting qualification which is covered by the class price(which other guys don't normally do) but if the students don't have to go anywhere they are welcome to keep shooting on the other firearms for a $5 rental and cost priced ammo (I only really make $5 off the rental which goes to the next firearm acquisition). Some folks rent a few firearms and I give personal instruction time on them. I've been known to take a four hour class and teach it up to eight hours when my students get to renting the other guns. I have gotten questions about why I don't have 1911s, XDs, Sigs, etc. to which I explain I'm new just this year as being on my own as an instructor and I had to decide between teaching at a competitive price ($20 to 30 cheaper than the other guys in most cases) with superior instruction time and personal time, or having the more expensive guns and forego the prior said. Most folks understand it, some give me a dirty look, and others don't get it at all, but they keep tell their friends and family about me. There is a note of fun to it when you meet the grand-daughter of one student who also happens to be the cousin of another student that is the in-law of another. I'll have made over 12k for my first go this year, being a slow start and all. I've primarily used the money to fill up my savings and gain experience in a wide variety of firearms and ammunition to pass on the wisdom to my students.

I got a Taurus PT 1911 .45 ACP, good gun, I enjoy it but I don't shoot it enough as I prefer my Glock 20 10mm, I think I'll add to repetoire of guns for the class so there can access to a 1911. I'll have to look at a S&W 64 next in February when I should have another sum of profit. Every other month or so I get between $600 to $800 in extra profit through my FFL guys for finding them customers, when i don't buy a gun I use the money to get ahead on my ammo stash(because no ammo equals no class). I've been stashing the money more and more because I'm graduating from law school in may and I know a few attorneys willing to send me work in various fields, so if I had to throw up my own sign, I could do it, get an office, get my own FFL, and expand the array of services offered to my students. I know a criminal attorney who likes the idea of doing the class with me for 'extended' versions where students get an attorney with over 30 years of experience in criminal law advising them on self-defense in Florida. Figure being an attorney in family law, some real estate, probabte and trusts, collections, foreclosures, and then having an FFL and additonal class to advise students on their rights regarding self-defense. Pipe dreams perhaps but I'm trying.

I wanted to upgrade what guns I was using for the class and thought it'd be wise to start in the CCW field first. So I'm definetly on for a Ruger SP101 by the middle of January if not sooner(have the money now but there are some folks I have to see first about their collections to see if I want to acquire anything from them). My budget is $800(it's arbitrary I know) so if I get a good enough deal I'll also try to get a used Glock 19 and have a good left over to swiftly get a S&W 64 by the end of February. If this third property I'm working on succeeds than I'll have to make it a point of upgrading the firearms for the class.

Thanks guys, guess I just needed a polite quick in the back side to do what I wanted to do. Was trying to do right by my students and may have not been helping quite how I liked. Most of my students have gotten back to me that they are happy with their purchases. But as an instructor I should work to do more I figure. Good faith tends to translate into good business when it comes to guns as I have found.

 

[Sam1911]

Sounds like you've got fine plans and are doing a good job. As I said, I'm not trying to criticize what you've got or what you like to shoot. Just trying to share another perspective about what I'd expect to have access to if I was paying for instruction.

Going toward the CCW end is a great idea if that's what you are teaching. The LCP/KelTec and the SP101 are fabulous choices. No reason not to invest your capital that way.

I'm sure your students will appreciate those additions.

Good luck!

-Sam

 

[9MMare]

I dont know all the 'models' you mentioned, so I'm going to suggest having a snubbie revolver in the mix (if you dont already).

These appeal to alot of new shooters, esp women, because they are small and light. However the reality is that they can be difficult to shoot accurately and even painful to shoot because of recoil. (Like anything else, they require practice, but if too unpleasant, people may not do so).

I'm not discouraging their use, just suggesting that the realities of shooting these guns be demonstrated for people, so they can make good choices when buying their first handguns.

 

[David E]

I'm a little curious how you describe the class.

If I was thinking about buying a gun and heard about you, what, specifically, does the course cover? How much does it cost? Number of rounds fired ? At what distance(s) ? Target type? What are the top 3 things I'll have learned after taking your class?

 

[WIGunCollector]

I read in here that the Taurus PT 709 is not +P rated. I questioned this and personally called Taurus since I did not find it in the manual. I was assured that all Taurus firearms are +P rated as long as the ammunition manufacturer loads to SAAMI standards. To verify my curiosity, I called them again on a different day and spoke with a different customer service rep and was informed the same.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I agree with what Sam said.

Get a three inch SP101, and a Ruger .22/45, or one in the Standard series. There's no way I'd teach someone in a paying class on a Russian Surplus gun. As far as auto-loaders go, the Browning Hi-Power fits nearly everyone's hand, including most women. The trigger is quite manageable.

I wanted to upgrade what guns I was using for the class and thought it'd be wise to start in the CCW field first.

Stop.


Your goal isn't to introduce them to guns they ought to think about buying. You're there to teach the bare basics and fundamentals. And introducing those on surplus guns makes the job much more difficult. Same with "CCW" guns.

Keep focused on the goal. Less is more. You're not teaching dynamic shooting classes. You're teaching the basics to brand new people. Stay focused.

 

[NG VI]

It's a weird group of guns for sure, the Rugers you've got, and the Glock and Taurus PT-92s are excellent to have for this purpose, for something else to add to the mix, I would say an FNP-9, they are fantastic pistols, don't cost a whole lot, and will definitely last a long time, plus the steel rails are replaceable when they eventually do wear out. Not going to happen quickly, but after five or ten years of classes you might want to restore it a bit and the FNP will facilitate that.

Also they have very nice triggers and great sights. And they are slim and low-bulk. I really like the FNP series based on my experience with them, they are guns that you can't go wrong with.

Unless you buy one looking for a speedo carry gun, or an elk hunting gun anyway.