Noe-.310-165 data

[AJC1]

So I'm jumping off the high dive down the rabbit hole to get this cast rifle bullet thing figured out. There will be data collection testing as I trudge forward. I consider this a long term project, and it has to share time with the pile of other load development I do. This will start in 308 but will definitely make an appearance in 30-30 when I get my mitts on that rifle eventually...
To begin this adventure I am building data on the casting process and hardness measures. Currently I have collected data on bh11 and bhn18 casting sessions. Randomly i decided to use 20 bullet data sets.
My one and only range session was an utter disaster, with no usable hits or groups collected. I believe inconsistent sizing was the genesis of that endeavor. Welcome to my dumpster fire...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

So I'm jumping off the high dive down the rabbit hole to get this cast rifle bullet thing figured out. There will be data collection testing as I trudge forward. I consider this a long term project, and it has to share time with the pile of other load development I do. This will start in 308 but will definitely make an appearance in 30-30 when I get my mitts on that rifle eventually...
To begin this adventure I am building data on the casting process and hardness measures. Currently I have collected data on bh11 and bhn18 casting sessions. Randomly i decided to use 20 bullet data sets.
My one and only range session was an utter disaster, with no usable hits or groups collected. I believe inconsistent sizing was the genesis of that endeavor. Welcome to my dumpster fire... View attachment 1109904

This may help - I hope it does - but one of the (few) things I remember from casting is what I been told by my mentors and vendors whose products I trust: it’s not “the hardness” that makes a good bullet, it’s the alloy. I was taught to stick with balanced metals where equal parts of tin and antimony were blended with pure lead. There’s some alchemy involved here, for sure. Also remember being told binary alloys are sometimes better than blended. 30-to-1 and 16-to-1 are led-tin alloys that always work well not because of their hardness but because of their heat resistance and “skin” properties. Antimonial lead has a place at the table, too. When I was working as a machinist I had almost free, almost unlimited access to foundry No.2 Alloy, Linotype and 16:1 alloy. 30:1 was a little harder to get I only because it was n it used as much in industrial processes. No.2 Alloy (5-5-90) was used in packing crates for Ti-Al T6 and T10 alloys to keep extruded bars from being damaged in transit. Typeset and Linotype were still in use at thousands of book, magazine, pamphlet and newspaper printers around the country. It was a good time to be casting.

Look at the tables in the Ideal No.40 manual in the casting section. It has some good ideas for which alloy to use in what application. IIRC.

 

[AJC1]

This may help - I hope it does - but one of the (few) things I remember from casting is what I been told by my mentors and vendors whose products I trust: it’s not “the hardness” that makes a good bullet, it’s the alloy. I was taught to stick with balanced metals where equal parts of tin and antimony were blended with pure lead. There’s some alchemy involved here, for sure. Also remember being told binary alloys are sometimes better than blended. 30-to-1 and 16-to-1 are led-tin alloys that always work well not because of their hardness but because of their heat resistance and “skin” properties. Antimonial lead has a place at the table, too. When I was working as a machinist I had almost free, almost unlimited access to foundry No.2 Alloy, Linotype and 16:1 alloy. 30:1 was a little harder to get I only because it was n it used as much in industrial processes. No.2 Alloy (5-5-90) was used in packing crates for Ti-Al T6 and T10 alloys to keep extruded bars from being damaged in transit. Typeset and Linotype were still in use at thousands of book, magazine, pamphlet and newspaper printers around the country. It was a good time to be casting.

Look at the tables in the Ideal No.40 manual in the casting section. It has some good ideas for which alloy to use in what application. IIRC.

Because I'm single source, rmr lead and only have rotometals superhard to harden I'm using those to figure out how to make it work. I believe tin would be very useful, I just don't have any currently.

 

[Barr]

Try speeding up or slowing down the bullet load as well. Microgroove barrels from Marlin are recommended 1500-1900 fps per Lyman for instance.

Also try heavier bullets, I used an NOE 170gr recently and had great success. Your barrel may prefer 180-190 gr.

Are you using gas checks?

Another option is water quench vs air cool, it will give you different hardnesses at no cost.

Bore sizing is critical, powder coating can add 0.001-0.002 if you wish. I have had mixed results in that arena.

My best .30 caliber results have come with IMR 3031 and Alliant 2400. In big bore H110 has reigned supreme. AA9 had abysmal results.

 

[AJC1]

Try speeding up or slowing down the bullet load as well. Microgroove barrels from Marlin are recommended 1500-1900 fps per Lyman for instance.

Also try heavier bullets, I used an NOE 170gr recently and had great success. Your barrel may prefer 180-190 gr.

Are you using gas checks?

Another option is water quench vs air cool, it will give you different hardnesses at no cost.

Bore sizing is critical, powder coating can add 0.001-0.002 if you wish. I have had mixed results in that arena.

My best .30 caliber results have come with IMR 3031 and Alliant 2400. In big bore H110 has reigned supreme. AA9 had abysmal results.

This mold is unchecked, my 173 is. I have been jumping all over the place and this is part of my plan to focus ADD and all. I got some comercal cast 150s sized to .310 that my dad shot in 30-30 down to a respectable group. I will start with 4227, then 2400, then 4189. If that's not getting it maybe 10x. Casting takes the number of choices to the next dimension in just the bullet let alone loads.
My cast with #9 in 357 is perfect and I bear it no ill will.

 

[PapaG]

Too hard is not good, at least in handguns. More leading happens when too hard bullets don't obturate and seal. My old wheel weight bullets are just fine for most iPod my needs, from 110 grain 30 cal planners to 380 grain 45-70 rollers.
Gas checks are a different story. Then, I doubt hardness is that big an issue.
For my match 30 cal 165 gc bullets, nothing beat linotype. Heat treated.
I don't powder coat and likely wont.

 

[AJC1]

Too hard is not good, at least in handguns. More leading happens when too hard bullets don't obturate and seal. My old wheel weight bullets are just fine for most iPod my needs, from 110 grain 30 cal planners to 380 grain 45-70 rollers.
Gas checks are a different story. Then, I doubt hardness is that big an issue.
For my match 30 cal 165 gc bullets, nothing beat linotype. Heat treated.
I don't powder coat and likely wont.

My intention with the bhn 18 was to fall closer in line with Lee. My brain says 13-14 will likely be the perfect number.

 

[PapaG]

My intention with the bhn 18 was to fall closer in line with Lee. My brain says 13-14 will likely be the perfect number.

That should be perfect

 

[Bfh_auto]

My intention with the bhn 18 was to fall closer in line with Lee. My brain says 13-14 will likely be the perfect number.

For reference on your alloy. I'm running 50/50 wheel weights and lead pipe. I'm using a homemade lube and gas check.
This is giving 2 moa accuracy at 100 yards with no leading at 1900 fps.
If you find the right powder and size. Your hardness is plenty.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Read pages 37-40 of the Ideal Handbook No.40. There’s a great write up of exactly what the percentage contents are of every lead alloy suitable for casting. I think some folks might be surprised to find out what actually defines the terms we use so broadly.

 

[gwpercle]

Most Important is the bullet must properly fit the barrel / bore . Slug the bore , measure and size .001" - .002" over bore diameter .

It isn't the hardness ... Hardness is way way over rated ... fit beats hardness seven ways to Sunday .
Hard undersized bullets lead your barrel like all git-out .

And it's not the alloy ... the makeup of the metal isn't that important . For 25 years I shot with clip on wheel weight metal ... discovered accuracy improved when I mixed COWW with soft lead
50-50 ( this has BHN 8.5 ) ! Softer metal worked better in both handguns and Rifle ... been casting and shooting softer for the last 25 years ... Size is still most important .
The 8.5 hardness is the equal of a ... 40 t0 1 - Lead / Tin mix ... if you can't get COWW
then 40 / 1 lead - tin will do .

Use gas checks and a good lubricant or powder coating .

It ain't rocket science and it doen't have to be complicated ... size them correctly and use Clip on wheel weight metal for rifle bullets or go 50-50 COWW and lead . Another good metal is Lyman #2 . Read the Lyman Cast Bullet articles #3 and #4 have good ones on casting , alloy and sizing .

Be careful of the "over complicated" it doesn't have to be that way !

Good luck
Gary

 

[AJC1]

Most Important is the bullet must properly fit the barrel / bore . Slug the bore , measure and size .001" - .002" over bore diameter .

It isn't the hardness ... Hardness is way way over rated ... fit beats hardness seven ways to Sunday .
Hard undersized bullets lead your barrel like all git-out .

And it's not the alloy ... the makeup of the metal isn't that important . For 25 years I shot with clip on wheel weight metal ... discovered accuracy improved when I mixed COWW with soft lead
50-50 ( this has BHN 8.5 ) ! Softer metal worked better in both handguns and Rifle ... been casting and shooting softer for the last 25 years ... Size is still most important .
The 8.5 hardness is the equal of a ... 40 t0 1 - Lead / Tin mix ... if you can't get COWW
then 40 / 1 lead - tin will do .

Use gas checks and a good lubricant or powder coating .

It ain't rocket science and it doen't have to be complicated ... size them correctly and use Clip on wheel weight metal for rifle bullets or go 50-50 COWW and lead . Another good metal is Lyman #2 . Read the Lyman Cast Bullet articles #3 and #4 have good ones on casting , alloy and sizing .

Be careful of the "over complicated" it doesn't have to be that way !

Good luck
Gary

Lyman #2 is 16bhn which is why I mixed my first batch that hard. I absolutely read the front matter of every manual I can find. Only one article in the casting #4 was not to my liking. Also the Los angles shooting club is chock full of great articles. May be some of the same authors that Lyman used.

 

[Twocanary]

Most Important is the bullet must properly fit the barrel / bore . Slug the bore , measure and size .001" - .002" over bore diameter .

It isn't the hardness ... Hardness is way way over rated ... fit beats hardness seven ways to Sunday .
Hard undersized bullets lead your barrel like all git-out .

And it's not the alloy ... the makeup of the metal isn't that important . For 25 years I shot with clip on wheel weight metal ... discovered accuracy improved when I mixed COWW with soft lead
50-50 ( this has BHN 8.5 ) ! Softer metal worked better in both handguns and Rifle ... been casting and shooting softer for the last 25 years ... Size is still most important .
The 8.5 hardness is the equal of a ... 40 t0 1 - Lead / Tin mix ... if you can't get COWW
then 40 / 1 lead - tin will do .

Use gas checks and a good lubricant or powder coating .

It ain't rocket science and it doen't have to be complicated ... size them correctly and use Clip on wheel weight metal for rifle bullets or go 50-50 COWW and lead . Another good metal is Lyman #2 . Read the Lyman Cast Bullet articles #3 and #4 have good ones on casting , alloy and sizing .

Be careful of the "over complicated" it doesn't have to be that way !

Good luck
Gary

Agree; what I do. My lead source is now an indoor range; soft lead. Don't need to use my stash of linotype when theres no more to be had.

Lyman M die, NOE plug expanders or something like that will be good for the softer bullet without deforming it while seating, not to mention it goes in straighter.

On flat, plain base bullets, I use 35 and 45 cal aluminum gas checks made from pop cans.

Lyman no2 is what I used but getting there with scrap lead is too expensive for me now. And the whole point of casting, for me, was to shoot more.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Most Important is the bullet must properly fit the barrel / bore . Slug the bore , measure and size .001" - .002" over bore diameter .

It isn't the hardness ... Hardness is way way over rated ... fit beats hardness seven ways to Sunday .
Hard undersized bullets lead your barrel like all git-out .

And it's not the alloy ... the makeup of the metal isn't that important . For 25 years I shot with clip on wheel weight metal ... discovered accuracy improved when I mixed COWW with soft lead
50-50 ( this has BHN 8.5 ) ! Softer metal worked better in both handguns and Rifle ... been casting and shooting softer for the last 25 years ... Size is still most important .
The 8.5 hardness is the equal of a ... 40 t0 1 - Lead / Tin mix ... if you can't get COWW
then 40 / 1 lead - tin will do .

Use gas checks and a good lubricant or powder coating .

It ain't rocket science and it doen't have to be complicated ... size them correctly and use Clip on wheel weight metal for rifle bullets or go 50-50 COWW and lead . Another good metal is Lyman #2 . Read the Lyman Cast Bullet articles #3 and #4 have good ones on casting , alloy and sizing .

Be careful of the "over complicated" it doesn't have to be that way !

Good luck
Gary

COWW are 90% lead, 1% tin and 9% antimony.

 

[AJC1]

COWW are 90% lead, 1% tin and 9% antimony.
View attachment 1109983

That formula has changed over time and the most critical component isn't mentioned which is arsenic. For those that heat treat (454 casuell) it's very important

 

[chamokaneman]

I don't have much to offer other than don't feel bad.

I began casting a year or two back and while I consider my 9mm powder coated bullets to be pretty successful, trying to cast for my .308 was a disaster. I have two .30 molds. One taught me about the possible need for nose sizing bullets, the other about alloy hardness, fit, lube adequacy, and most of all how to remove lead from a barrel. Needless to say I didn't achieve any meaningful data either. That was late last winter but after hunting is over in a couple months I'm going to take some linotype and a little collection of NOE sizing tools I've acquired and try again.

 

[Charlie98]

It isn't the hardness ... Hardness is way way over rated ... fit beats hardness seven ways to Sunday .
Hard undersized bullets lead your barrel like all git-out .

That right there... ^^^

Look, all I shoot is commercially cast bullets... I don't have any control over whats in them, nor the hardness, in fact, I don't even care. I do care about what the diameter is, because at the end of the day, that's what produces results. A difference in .001" diameter made all the difference in my Savage 99 in .30-30, and I might give .311" a try just to see. My Savage 99 in .308 didn't care... but that is a newer rifle, and, obviously, a different barrel.

I'm not sure what you are launching those with... but even if it's a Marlin, with MicroGroove rifling, you CAN get it to shoot cast well... don't let the nay-sayers get you down.

If you want to save yourself a little headache... slow down on the powders. By that I mean... pick one or two, and work with those as you find a good cast bullet alloy and diameter. THEN you can go to town trying different powders. Slay one dragon at a time. I would pick IMR4198 and IMR4227, personally, but it depends on what you have at hand. I would substitute 2400 for IMR4227, for example. Once you get the dynamics of bullet flight down, the propellant becomes less of a factor given the velocities you are trying to achieve.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That formula has changed over time and the most critical component isn't mentioned which is arsenic. For those that heat treat (454 casuell) it's very important

True the formula has changed but to the best of my knowledge and research there has always been less tin than antimony in COWW unless they were zinc and tin or malleable steel and Zamak. Point being, you’re exactly right that casters only KNOW what is in the WW if they assay it before they melt. Anybody out there doing that? How many are using an industry certified Brinell tester? It’s okay to guess and observation is a valid metric but don’t anyone fool themselves into thinking what they assume is hard facts. What I’m saying is, the oldest and best tested method says the content of the alloy makes more difference than the hardness of the bullet, all other factors considered. It’s not difficult and doesn’t need to be. Just keep good notes and try to be consistent when you find a combination that works.

 

[Charlie98]

and most of all how to remove lead from a barrel.

It happens...

It’s not difficult and doesn’t need to be.

Yep... that's why I just order mine. A man has to know his limitations...