Non-HP ammo choices for .38SPL snubs...

[seeker_two]

For those who can't carry HP's in their area....

...or for those who want penetration over expansion...

...which type of ammo works best for the .38SPL snub?

Wadcutters?

Semi-Wadcutters?

Full-Metal Jacket Flat Points (i.e. S&B)?

Lead Round-Nose Flat Points?


What is your opinion?


Thanks in advance...

 

[Marko Kloos]

Absent the availability or legality ofJHPs, I'd stuff a .38 with wadcutters. The sharp shoulder on a wadcutter cuts through stuff better than the polite shape of a LRN.

 

[Hal]

Here's how I'd personally rank them from "best" to "least desireable".

- SWC
- JSP
- WC
- LRN - FMJ (tie)

I base it on all around availibility/performance. Limiting the choices to a round which in all probability will either shoot through(1,2,4&5) - or not penetrate enough(3) - I'll go with punching a clean cut hole through the intended.

P.S. _ I've never been a fan of the Wadcutter for defensive use. While they look great "on paper" and in theory,,,if they worked THAT well, the ammo mfg's would all be falling over each other to put one to market. In 30 plus years of buying ammo, I haven't seen that happen.

No doubt a bunch of people are going to extoll the virtues of the wadcutter as "the ultimate" choice. Let's face reality. If that was true, Winchester - Federal - Remington - you name it - they'd all have one. Fact is they don't. The reason is simple. It just don't work in real life like it would seem to in theory.

 

[Tamara]

Hal,

You're forgetting some other users of very wadcutter-like bullets: Garrett, Buffalo Bore, et cetera. All other things being equal, the wadcutter will offer better penetration than a roundnose or SWC bullet, as its nose-heavy shape will not cause it to tumble in the wound channel. The sharp-shouldered meplat also seems to be a more effective wounding mechanism than the rounded ogive of conventional ball. This is why it is a good bullet shape for grizzly bears when fired out of .44 and .45 caliber wheelguns.

The thing is, all the commercial wadcutter loads in the .38 Special are loaded very mildly, because they are primarily viewed as target rounds, due to the neat hole they punch in paper. (This is, incidentally, one reason they're all seated flush in the case, too; so that they'll work in S&W Model 52 autoloaders.)

In summation, if you want defense-appropriate wadcutters, you'll need to roll your own.

 

[snubby]

Corbon's 38 Spl Pow'RBall loading (100 grain bullet) might be another good choice, once it becomes available. Penetration won't match the above solid bullets, but expansion should be improved, even despite snub velocities.

 

[WT]

Lead semi-wadcutters +P.

 

[Sean Smith]

I think that if I was using off-the-shelf, standard pressure (not +P) ammunition for a wee .38 Special, I'd probalby use something like the S&B 158gr flat-point FMJ. A round-nose bullet is more likely to ricochet or skid off a curved surface (think: skull), as opposed to punching through. I'd rather have a FMJ-WC load at full power, but there really isn't any such thing off-the-shelf... the 148gr WC factory loads are usually super-slow.

(This is, incidentally, one reason they're all seated flush in the case, too; so that they'll work in S&W Model 52 autoloaders.)

And old Colt National Match guns in .38 Special.

 

[tbeb]

I would use +P 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutters. If I couldn't handle the +P's then I would use non +P's. +P's have a higher velocity and that means more energy, but also a little more recoil.

Some like 148 gr. target wadcutters. I don't. Before decent hollowpoints arrived, I'll bet most law enforcement agencies loaded their snubbies with 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutters, not 148 gr. target wadcutters.

 

[Quantrill]

The fully powered wadcutters are a good choice and recommended by many folks. If not that, then the Keith Semi-wadcutter (Lyman 358429) bullet backed by 10 gr of 2400 is a potent load for a snub, not as a steady diet but as the business load. Quantrill

 

[George S.]

Thik I would go with Sean Smith's suggestion on the S&B 158gr jacketed FP round. I use them in my Ruger GP100 and they seem to be a pretty potent round. Almost 1000fps and 350 ft-lbs of energy in a 4" barrel. Don't know if this is close to +p levels but they do kick a bit compared to the factory reloaded 147gr FMJ I use.

They seem to be pretty accurate in my 6" barrel with sub 2" groups at 15yds.

 

[Pappy John]

Hey Quantrill, not a flame, just a question. Since 2400 is a fairly slow burning powder, won't it loose most of its efficiency in a short barrel, turning most of that load into muzzle flash? I'd think a faster powder for snubs would be appropriate.

 

[jmcc11]

For full powered wadcutters check these out.
http://www.safestop.net/Frame.htm

 

[Sean Smith]

I'd think a faster powder for snubs would be appropriate.

You'd think so, but it often doesn't work out that way when you actually shoot the loads over the chronograph. Ammo is wierd.

 

[Jim March]

Target full-wadcutters are a GREAT shape. Problem is, they're loaded too light most of the time from the factory. You'll have to either brew your own or have Weshoot2 roll you some custom.

The Safestop wadcutters are indeed the hottest non-plus-P "wadcutters" I'm aware of. The shoulders aren't *quite* as sharp as a full target wadcutter but that's because they wanted them to speedload faster, so they rolled the forward edge. Not a big deal IMHO.

 

[Quantrill]

PappyJohn,
It would almost seem that 2400 would be counter-productive in a short barrel. A few years ago, the NRA tested that and found that it did not make that much difference. In those rounds that I have assembled and shot, I have never found an abundance of unburned powder which seems to bear out the NRA findings. Quantrill

 

[MrPink]

What about Glasers? I have a friend in NJ where HP aren't legal bu Glasers are OK.

 

[Cosmoline]

IMHO most HP's are a waste of time on standard handgun cartridges. You can't do better than the 158 Grain lead RN's--the classic .38 Special. A HP in a .38 Special out of a small revolver is like an air brake. And why do you need an air brake when you weren't going all that fast to start out?

 

[JNewell]

If you want to up-charge a wadcutter, you should make sure you buy or cast up hard alloy bullets. All the .38 WC bullets I've ever loaded were super soft. Anything over their usual pokey speed and you'll probably fail to get 'em spinning. I guess you could argue that this isn't important at short range, but I'm accountable for everything that leaves the barrel...and I don't want to have a gun that's only good to 7 yards or whatever the practical result turns out to be.

 

[gunny]

I "brew" my own loads for my 638 S&W. I use 4 grains of Unigue under a 158 Non jacketed SWC. I have found that a slow burning powder like 2400 can leave powder residue under the extraction star causing the cylinder to bind up preventing the cylinder from closing. Tests have proven that hollow points have a poor performance rate when fired into BG covered with fabric. The fabric clogs the HPs and can prevent expansion. The SWC will mushroom when it hits a major bone, such as the sterum or rib cage, and the relatively low velocity reduces the risk of over penetration. Recoil is mild even in a J frame and is non-existant in a M-19 2 & 1/2 inch. Accuracy is pretty good, on a good day I can shoot 1 & 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 10 yards.

 

[Hal]

You're forgetting some other users of very wadcutter-like bullets

Nope - didn't forget them at all.
Apples to orange crates to compare a typical .38spl target wadcutter @ 148 gr to a 300 to 400 gr hunting load that sells darn near per round what a box o' .38wc's costs.

 

[Al Thompson]

gunny, IMHO, you'll find that the latest generation bullets (Gold Dots) work fine with a reasonable amount of cloth. I have had JHPs clog (Hydra-Shoks) with cloth, but can attest that Golden Sabers and Gold Dots do not.


Atlanta Arms offers FMJ 148 gr wadcutters for the .38. Great stuff!

 

[PigPen]

And I thought I had this figgured out!!



I have a box of Federal 38 Special, 110 grain, JHP, hydra-Shok , Personal Defense rounds. After reading TFL, I went out and bought a box of Winchester 38 Spl. +P, 158 gr lead-Semi Wad cutter HP. They are BOTH labeled and/or touted to be the ultimate in Personal Defense.

After reading this thread, I'm unclear what to carry in my 649-2.


PigPen


Maybe I should go back to my .45 ACP. I know exactly what to tote in that.

 

[seeker_two]

PigPen: Sorry if this thread has confused you. I was just asking this question to find out about everyone's choices within specific limitations. Picking SD ammo can be tricky, but it's not rocket science. It all depends on what you want it to do.

You had two good choices there. The 110gr. HP's are good choices for times when you need good expansion & limited penetration. The 158gr. LSWHP's are great when you need more penetration & can stand to give up some expansion (my personal choice). Sometimes you need maximum penetration even if it means giving up expansion--hence my question.

If you want some good info to help you choose, do a search on .38 ammo on THR or try the AmmoLab website. They do a good comparison of .38SPL ammo from snubbies here, too.

Hope this helps...

 

[Jim March]

PigPen: your 649-2 can take moderate amounts of +P ammo, within reason: the Cor-Bons are abnormally hot, and some of the +P+ was labeled such just so cops could *say* they weren't running 357s .

This thread is about people who have 38Spl guns weaker than yours. In YOUR gun, the Winny 158+P lead semi-watcutters are one of the best possible choices out there and so long as you can cope with the recoil, you need shop no further. I wouldn't do ALL of my shooting in those, but a few boxes of range familiarity in it and a cylinderful to cap off each shooting session won't hurt it any.

As "+P" goes, those are very moderate in terms of gun stress.

There are a small number of JHPs in 38+P that also work in snubbies - the Winchester 130grain Supreme +P is a good one, and and loads based on the 125 Gold Dot (Speer, Proload, Georgia Arms, Black Hills, others) are quite nice too - and Speer is about to upgrade the projectile to a 130 designed for snubby performance, and that'll rock. But JHPs stress the gun a bit more than soft lead so if the gun is "barely +P capable" such as yours, or my Charter Arms Undercover, sticking with those Winchester 158+Ps might have merit.

My answer, in a gun much like yours: practice mostly with normal-pressure lead, have the Win 158+Ps as my home D load, practice with it sparingly. When the new 130 Speers come out, I'll see how they handle and shoot, and see what the gell-testers have to say (www.ammolabs.com and the like).

 

[PigPen]

Thanks. Now my eyes are no longer glassy and my head spinning!

I won't worry about shooting it too much....It's my carry alot and shoot little piece. Mostly I shoot .45 ACP.


PigPen