Noob iron sights/scope question

[dagger dog]

Just laughing at Arts, cactus, and stump deer!

This story is kind of a (?urban? or I guess rural would be more appropriate) myth, about the old hermit that used to nail a nice size rack to a sycamore log there in the woods, he always had plenty of LEAD for his reloading!

 

[scythefwd]

negative. the army shoots out to 300 yards for their qual. The Marines shoot out to 500.

My quals went out to 400 with a SAW and irons (well, rear peep, front post). That would be the same as using a good supported position in the field (using a branch as a rest). My grandfather was doing 8 inch groups at 400 yards with a M1 Garand (with witnesses) and he was a very good marksman. He had more accurate guns that he shot when he wanted score kept. With a scope and a good rifle, it will probably take your range past what is ethical to shoot. You can pass that mark pretty easily with a good set of irons too.

 

[t165]

I can shoot a 3 inch group at 1,000 yards with my scoped RWS 34. If I use the factory RWS 34's iron sights the group expands to around a 5 inch group at that yardage. Now, if the rifle diesels groups get spread all over the place. Okay...just kidding.

The coyote ART EATMAN was speaking of must have been the dumbest coyote who ever lived. I grew up around pig farms and coyotes were not tolerated even though they were frequent visitors. I've never seen a wild coyote who stuck around long after the first sound of gunfire. And at a military gun range with repeated discharges? That coyote must have been retarded or deaf! And talk about the odds of the coyote showing up at the right time for the recruit to demonstrate his shooting prowess to his know-it-all military range instructor! What were the odds of that?

Past 50 yards I have to use a scope to obtain the accuracy I feel comfortable hunting with. However, I have seen some guys do some rather amazing shooting with iron sights.

 

[jmr40]

Most people misunderstand a scopes purpose. With good light, good sights and someone who knows what they are doing there will be little difference in group size between irons and scopes at most ranges.

A scope helps you be more accurate with less practice at ALL ranges. Scopes are a tremendous aid in low light and put everything on 1 focal plane. With irons the target, front and rear sights are 3 diffeent distances from the eye. It is impossible for the eye to focus on all 3 at once.

Most of my hunting is done in thick woods at less than 50 yards. I have to find small openings in brush and put my bullet through them right at first or last light. I would argue that a scope is much more helpful for this shot than a 300 yard shot at an Elk standing in the open in bright light.

 

[t165]

My trouble is my eyes jmr40. No amount of light, good sights or "knowing what one is doing" will fix that. Unless you are smarter than my eye doctor and can fix me? I wish you could! My grandpa went blind and now my grandmother is legally blind but she can still recognize me sometimes. And I'm only 46...it sucks. I can still focus with a scope but the front sight is too blurry most of the time even with glasses to improve my open sight shooting. It's funny though, sometimes my eyes clear up and I can focus again for a short period of time. I'm not legally blind and still pass a drivers test but I cannot focus on that damn front sight enough to know exactly where I am aiming...frustrating!

 

[Art Eatman]

Somewhere between the ages of forty and fifty, the majority of all people lose the ability to maintain focus on rear sight/front sight/target. Usually, either the rear sight or the target is somewhat blurred.

However, aging beats the alternative, and there are beaucoup folks out there who will sell you a scope.

 

[Readyrod]

Universalfrost, I checked the 303 ammo at the Sportsman Guide and it isn't so cheap. At least in the US. If the ammo isn't cheap I'd rather do as you suggested and get a 30-06 Stevens. The real attraction to the Mosin is the cheap ammo. (which may dry up at some point anyway)
H&Hhunter, thanks for the picture. You have no idea how much I want to go back to Africa. A few months ago I dreamed I was there, and then the alarm went off and I had to go to work, bummer. Just a wild guess but did you use a .375 on that thing???
I'll probably have to rethink the mosin thing as some of the advantages of scopes that everyone has mentioned are pretty good. I'll have to check out about putting a scope on a mosin. Any suggestions?

 

[Art Eatman]

"I'll have to check out about putting a scope on a mosin. Any suggestions?"

Yeah. Start a thread in the Rifle Country forum.

 

[Readyrod]

Yea sorry, I can actually search the mosin scope question, I seem to remember it being discussed in another thread.

 

[Harve Curry]

With my 1881 Marlin 45-70 my limit is about 200 yards. I keep the sight up's and holds on a card taped to the stock. I practice out to 300 yards on paper but hunting conditions (eyes, being steady) limit me to 200 yards. I use a full buck horn ladder rear sight made by Smith.
This deer was from cross sticks at 168 yards across open ground. I watched him for 4 hours before getting the shot.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

As has been mentioned, scopes help not *just* with distance shooting (although they do help with that too) - but principally with low light shooting and target ID at most any distance.

And as mentioned, the answer depends on the skill of the shooter, the eyes of the shooter (how good or old), and the type of iron sight used. But very generally, you might could say that someone with older eyes (over 40) like me are comfortable shooting a whitetail deer sized vital zone (10" across let's say) with typical "buckhorn" sights, and average skill, at only around 100-125 yards; maybe 150 (but less in low light!). But I am comfortable with a good scope & rifle shooting a whitetail at up to 275 yards or more under the right conditions (good rest, very little wind), and that's even in low light. So that's a very significant difference for me, that a scope adds to the practical hunting range (about TWICE). Yes, I would probably hit the deer in the vitals and kill it cleanly with irons at even around 200 yards, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable trying it.

With a larger kill zone, such as an elk, just add around 30-50 yards to all ranges, irons or scopes.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Just a wild guess but did you use a .375 on that thing???

Readyrod,

Nope I used a .470NE double rifle which is the rifle in the picture.

 

[chevyforlife21]

well i think if your gonna have open sights go with a 30 30 marlin or winchester if you want a scope go with a bolt action 243 270 3006 etc...

 

[Readyrod]

I was thinking of getting a pistol caliber lever action for short range smaller size game hunting. A lot of the bush where I plan to move to is thick and I was thinking that a 100 or so yard bullet would be a good match with iron sights. With the larger capacity and somewhat fast firing of a lever action I could use it for hd/sd seeing as I'll be in Canada where the gun laws make handguns much less useful. Plus I'm thinking that they'll eventually ban semi autos.
In the clearcuts and the high country tho the ranges are longer and I'm now thinking, from the advice you guys are giving, I should get a proper hunting rig with a scope and maybe have iron sights for backup.