NRA Highpower- barrels and triggers

[Jeff H]

I'm thinking I would like to get into NRA high power for next years season and was wondering on what everyone's opinions of decent barrels and triggers for the AR platform. I want to just get a 2nd upper in 223Rem and be able to just drop it on when I go to a competition.

I don't think I need the top dollar stuff because I'm just beginning so I'm more interested in the best bang for the buck if I am going to spend $4-500 on a new barrel and trigger assembly. Unless there is a real advantage, I don't think I need the $500 Krieger barrels but I'm open to all options since I have all winter to save up for parts and practice.

I'm not interested in keeping the rifle legal for service rifle because I have no interest in using open sights. I know the appropriate scope is going to set me back quite a bit, but the scope is the topic of a future thread.

 

[Strykervet]

Well, a good AR is built around the barrel and the trigger.

A good tuned RRA NM trigger will give fine results. I have one and it is comparable to the lighter Geissele triggers in feel. Geissele has more options, but if you just want a light 2 stage trigger with 2 definite stages and a crisp let off, this one will do the job.

For barrels, well, I either use chrome lined mil spec barrels for everything but super accuracy. For that, I like to use the Satern barrels, and I like to get 'em custom made to my liking. There are others, like Krieger and Lijla, but Satern is the one I like.

For a competition, you have to ask yourself, is that $350 button rifled barrel THAT big of a savings over the $500 cut rifle barrel?

Basically, I cut corners with barrels only on plinkers, mil spec, etc. For accuracy, I go all out on the trigger and the barrel. Save money by using a lower cost mil spec receiver set, a plain jane stock, and a cheap aluminum free float tube. Don't skimp on the barrel and the trigger, that is my advice.

 

[dennymac]

High Power Upper

Well, good afternoon. If you want to shoot the HP game, and you already have a complete lower, it is a simple decision, with 3 choices. If you have a standard lower assembly with a standard fixed stock, you may purchase a Service Rifle Upper from White Oak, or similar supplier, and compete with it just as it is. They run around $800, and they will shoot High Master scores right out of the box with decent ammo. Your second choice is purchasing a Flat Top and a detachable carry handle with a set of match grade sights on it. This takes care of the Service Rifle class. If you are not interested in the Service Rifle class, here is choice number 3. Get a Flat Top match Upper and a good set of aperture sights, front and rear. You are, again, in the running for match winner, in the Match Rifle class. And, after the match, you can remove the rear aperture sights, install your favorite scope and blaze away at varmints, deer, or whatever other thing suits your fancy. You do not have to remove the front sight. You cannot see it through the scope. I have a quick detachable set of scope rings that seems to hold Zero pretty well after removing and replacng the scope. Hope that this helps. Have a great day. DennyMac

 

[Slamfire]

For my .223 NM AR's, I have had outstanding experience with Douglas barrels, Wilson Match.

I installed Krieger's for my matchrifle configuration AR. Be aware that Krieger barrels are tight, you will need to cut loads developed in Douglas or Wilson barrels by around 2 grs. I kept on reducing loads by a half grain till my primers stopped piercing, and that was around 1.5 to 2 grs.

I cannot hold hard enough with a post to take advantage of whatever advantage a Krieger barrel will give. So Wilson and Douglas are just fine for service rifles. I think Krieger barrels are better, but since I am using an aperature, heck if I know, because I will always shoot tighter groups with an aperature than a post. I shoot HM scores in the rapids out to 300 yards, am shooting more HM scores at 600 yards than ever, so I know Krieger barrels are good.

I remember asking the Marine Armorer's what they had on the line at Camp Perry. They were using every brand you heard of. Barrel makers donate barrels to the USMC rifle team, and all that mattered was ten shots within three inches at 300 yards. That year, I remember they had Douglas and Kreiger on the line, there were other brands but I forgot the names. I would mention a name, and they had it on a rifle.

What you find is more important than the blank is the chambering job. Your gunsmith has to cut a nice round chamber that is in line with the bore.

I have had outstanding experiences with Compass Lake with my AR's. Frank does an excellent job chambering and fitting.

 

[W.E.G.]

I kept on reducing loads by a half grain till my primers stopped piercing, and that was around 1.5 to 2 grs.

You must be using "standard" primers.
That would be a mistake.

Use magnum primers and that piercing issue goes away without raising pressures or velocity, and without reducing powder charges.

 

[W.E.G.]

To shoot pretty decent highpower scores, you need half-minute sights, and a float tube on your A2 rifle.

Everything else is just luxury.

 

[wanderinwalker]

If you have a lower with an A2 set-up, drop one of these uppers on it and go shoot. Get a tuned RRA 2-stage trigger and you've got what you need. And they're aperture (or aperture and post sights), not open sights...

You can shoot with a scope, but I'm going to guess you'll probably be the only shooter on the line with one. I can come up with 2-3 shooters I've seen on the line in the last 2 seasons with optical sights in an across-the-course match. As far as I understand there are fewer awards and categories for the optical sight class (possibly ineligible for awards in some matches?), which is why you see so few shooters in it.

And for barrels, a Wilson .223 barrel is plenty adequate to shoot High Master scores all the way back to 600-yards if you're capable of it. I'm knocking on the door of HM shooting a WOA-chambered 1-7" Wilson on my Service Rifle this year. Total cost of barrel and head-spaced bolt is only about $250, which is outstanding for the performance. Many of the other shooters I shoot with shoot the same barrels, and they're inexpensive enough to replace every 3000-3500 rounds.

 

[Jeff H]

Very interesting information everybody, I appreciate it, keep it coming.

Okay, so I did some reading in the NRA rule book and my local club rules after reading some posts and it appears that a scope is out for high power competitions. I'm still not a real fan of shooting the stock sights out to 600 yards and I have seen a couple mentions of front and rear aperture sights put on bull barrels but I don't see them for sale when doing a google search. What do they look like, where can I find them, and how are they better than the stock aperture rear sight and post? I'm assuming I can get the front sight installed without too much hassle on a Krieger or similar barrel?!?

 

[wanderinwalker]

Okay, may I ask a question: Why aren't you a fan of shooting the stock sights at 600-yards? Depending on the issue, there are several things that can be done about it.

On a Service Rifle (my recommendation based on economy and match opportunities, but not for everybody) the normal issue is the fact that the sight radius is short and the front sight can be hard to focus on at the end of a day of shooting. You can get hooded rear sights with lens kits to help with this, or a Microsight, or sometimes just playing with different aperture sizes helps.

Doing all of this will help with the second common issue, where shooting a post front sight IS more challenging than round sights. You can change post size for your eyes, wider or thinner. I don't think they're terribly expensive and other shooters will normally be happy to show you what they're running so you can "try before you buy".

In terms of adjustment precision, I know of nobody who isn't running at least 1/2-minute adjustments, and most rifles will come with 1/4-minute clicks at the rear sight. So you're not sacrificing adjustability to a scope.

Oh, and don't forget, the aiming bull on a 600-yd target is 3 FEET across. When I'm in position it is approximately the width of my front sight from my perspective. I also use a 6 o'clock hold, with a nice tight pumpkin-on-post appearance. You can also use a center-of-mass hold, a frame hold or a couple of other tricks, depending on the range conditions and what you can resolve effectively. I used to use a COM hold, but had some major elevation issues by the end of a match because my eyes couldn't make out a reliable sight picture.

(Every time I break out the smallbore rifle I'm borrowing or something like an M-1 Garand or 1903, my first though is "Oh, wow, look at that! That front sight is so eeeaaassssy to see out there.")

As for the front sights on match rifles, I know they are commonly attached on a ring-type base to the barrel or extension tube. They are not normally permanently fixed to the barrel, not in the way a set of sights on a sporter-type rifle will be.

 

[dzelenka]

Service rifle (i.e. M16A2 or A4 clone with carry handle sights) is THE set up for highpower rifle shooting. If you look at the number of people who shoot service rifle vs match rifle, it may be as many as 10:1 in some areas. There are more matches available and there is cooler bling to win. If you ever aspired to be a Distinguished Rifleman, service rifle is the only ticket. As far as shooting "stock sights" to 600 yards, you need to know that the sights on a good NM service rifle (like a WOA) are a very repeatable 1/4 x 1/4 MOA. I have juniors who can use them to shoot in the high 190s at 600 yards. There is nothing inaccurate or inexact about them.

You should contact you r local match director and see if he will introduce you to a mentor who would take you to the range and show you the ropes. It is a whole new world of shooting. It is addictive as hell too.

Dan

 

[dzelenka]

Oh and to answer your first question:

Trigger - RRA NM is usable if properly tuned by someone like WOA; Geisselle is the gold standard.

Barrel - The WOA Wilson is a great barrel for really good price. They are properly chambered and they come with the important little details like an adjustible front sight base. I don't see any difference in my scores between the WOAs and the Kreigers on a Service Rifle. Save the money and buy ammo.

Dan

 

[P-32]

A service rifle is a rifle used by the armed forces back to the M-1 Garand. The rifles just have to look like a srvice rifle the armed forces used. Some can have a some what larger stock depending on the rifle. Most AR shooters put lead under the hand guards and butt atock to make the rifle weigh more. A heavy rifle is easier to hold during the standing stage unlike a light rifle.

The aiming black gets larger as you go back. The sight picture is the same at 200 as it is at 300 as it 600 yards. Here you will find those who tell you they took their deer at 600 yards or more, are mostly full of it.

there is a couple of great AR builders out there. I happen to like White Oak Precision and have two of their uppers. White Oak Arms is a division of WOP, just different guys doing the work. Both come with a NM front post and the rear sights come with a couple of different apertures which can be changed for light conditions. While the Wilson barrels are nice shooters, I have one upper with a Kreiger which makes no copper. I have a RRA two stage tuned by WOP in my older rifle and a Geisselle in the new rifle. Both work well but the Geisselle takes the cupcake. Both my AR's sport !/4 X 1/4 rear sights because these rifles can use them. The Krieger has a 7 to 1 twist and shoots the 77 and 80 gr. SMK's like a house'o fire.

hooting irons improve your skills with a scoped rifle. For some this is the real benefit. Shooting High Power you will learn true marksmanship skills unlike any thing else. March fees are kept low so you can afford to shoot.

 

[westerngrizzly]

Hello,
My name is Matt, and i am a "retired" highpower shooter. I shot on the California Junior Highpower Rifle team for a year or 2. I was on the team that won Rattle Battle and set a few records. Since then I have made the transition to International smallbore and air rifle But enough about me.

First you have got to decide if you want to shoot service rifle or match rifle. There are pros and cons of both, which I will go into later.

There are many options to go by to get into Highpower if you want to go the AR platform route.
If you have the lower, you can do this:
1. Put a Service Rifle upper on it (White oak is the industry standard, and that's what I shot). Put a Geissle or a Jackson (don't mess around with RRA triggers) service rifle trigger in the rifle. And put a A2 grip and trigger on the rifle. Slap a sling on the gun and you can shoot Xs all day.
2. Get a flattop Match upper for it. I personally would get a 6MMAR Turbo 40 improved. Then put some match grade sights on the rifle and a Geissle trigger in it. You can keep your A2 buttplate if you want, or you could get a super adjustable one.
3. Do the same as #2 but put a scope on the rifle. You would compete in the ANY rifle class and would not be allowed to win.

The pros and cons of Service rifle.
Pros:
More popular
You can shoot CMP week at Camp Perry. LOTS of fun.
Simpler to use.
Easy to reload for.
Less expensive than Match rifles.
You can become a Distinguished Rifleman.

Cons:
Rifle isn't adjustable.
Trigger weight.
.223 is not the best in the wind.
The sights are more difficult to see. Especially if your vision isn't great.
Short sight radius.
Sling isn't the best.

Match rifle pros and cons.
Pros:
Adjustment. You can make the rifle fit you.
Caliber.
Accuracy (by a hair).
Sights. Match sights leave service rifle sights in the dust.
Trigger weight.
Longer sight radius

Cons:
More expensive.
You go through barrels faster.
A little more difficult to get used to.
Take more time to set up.
Not as popular.
Cant go distinguished.

I personally would go the match rifle route. They are SO much more comfortable than service rifles. And if you have any vision problems they will make it easier.

With a match rifle, you lose almost nothing to a scope. Even at 600-1000 yards. The brain likes to line up things so they are concentric, so it is very natural to line up the sights (circle within a circle within a circle). AND you can put in MAGNIFIERS in the sights (1.3 or 1.5 power) which makes the sights that much easier to see. AND you can put on a sight extension tube on the barrel (bloop tubes) and move the front sight farther away from you, making it easier to focus on and easier to perceive angular changes.
Matt

 

[P-32]

You must be using "standard" primers.
That would be a mistake.

Use magnum primers and that piercing issue goes away without raising pressures or velocity, and without reducing powder charges.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm going to argue mag primers over standard ones do raise pressure. Slam Fire 1 did not say what primer he was using but I know Remington 7 1/2's work well for me. I have never pierced one of these even when maybe I should have.

I did not change my High Power loads when I got a second upper with a Kreiger barrel. No signs of pressure and it shot well. In fact the Nor Pac and Kreiger uppers use about the same dope, click for click. Must be because they are both WOP's.