NRA Management's Support for “Assault Weapons†Banners

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KMKeller

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NRA Management's Support for “Assault Weapons†Banners

by Angel Shamaya
[email protected]

March 9, 2004

KeepAndBearArms.com — With all of the recent rumors going around about the NRA Management having possibly cut a deal to allow the renewal of the Clinton/Feinstein semi-auto rifle and magazine ban, perhaps it's time to take a look at NRA management's Congressional strategy back when the original ban was signed into law in 1994. Maybe we should carefully consider NRA management's other shows of support for the banners of “assault weapons,†too. After all, there must be some logical reason a dozen or more non-NRA grassroots groups don't trust the “800 pound gorilla†when it comes to this particular federal gun ban, right?

The following sections are covered in this report, which you can read in less than five minutes:

• How NRA Management's Strategy Helped the 1994 Gun Ban Pass
• Return of the “Fix it in Committee†Strategy
• NRA Director Awarded After Voting for 1994 Ban
• Who Else Was Rewarded for Supporting Rifle Bans?
• NRA's “Second Amendment Champion†Voted to Renew Ban
• Current NRA Director Working Against Us
• Why Don't People Trust the NRA?


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HOW NRA MANAGEMENT'S STRATEGY HELPED THE 1994 GUN BAN PASS

According to three U.S. Senate staffers — who worked on The Hill during the original 1993/94 semi-auto rifle and magazine ban and still work as Senate staffers today — in November of 1993 the NRA asked their bosses not to object to a unanimous consent agreement on the crime bill. (The unanimous consent agreement happened on November 19, 1993. The bill had had the Feinstein semi-auto ban amendment attached to it two days earlier, by a vote of 56 to 43.) No objection meant that no filibuster would be possible. An objection to the unanimous consent agreement would have delayed the crime bill at least through the holidays and into the next year, giving the grassroots critical time to mobilize against the bill.

According to these Senate staffers, the NRA explained that they did not mind the gun ban passing the Senate and going to a conference committee — where NRA officials felt the gun ban could be killed. (Of course, this strategy failed.) NRA officials' strategy was to keep the legislative process moving so they could get to the Brady Bill and make sure the instant background check was nailed down in it.

The House Committee assigned to “clean†the bill had an NRA Director on it back then — and it clearly did not get “cleaned†of the gun ban. In fact, when the bill left that committee, that same NRA Director even voted for the final passage of the gun ban, too. More on that below.



RETURN OF THE “FIX IT IN COMMITTEE†STRATEGY

This pattern — “we'll fix it in a conference committee or kill it afterwards†— was repeated in the recent Senate shootout over the effort to protect the firearms industry from frivolous lawsuits brought by gun banners trying to put the gun industry in financial ruin.

Neal Knox (former Executive Director of NRA-ILA, former Vice President of NRA for three years) published a strong defense of the NRA strategy of using the House to clean up the mess the Senate was certain to make. In his March 1, 2004 report, Knox said,

“The only way to get the [lawsuit protection] bill passed is to get it back to the House where it can be cleaned up or killed.â€

He even belittled gun rights activists who didn't want to trust NRA's managers to such a gamble and said that even if the renewal of the gun ban was attached, “I want the Senate to hold their noses and send it back to the House.†The next day, after the bill had been killed due to floods of calls from irate gun owners, Knox wrote that:

“NRA had hoped to clean up the bill in the joint House/Senate Conference Committee.â€

That same NRA strategy failed in 1993 and 1994 because NRA officials had no ability to control the outcome of the conference committee. NRA officials hoped to strip out the gun ban in conference, but it remained in the bill as it came out of conference, passed both houses of Congress and was signed by President Clinton. In 2004, the NRA had more strength in the Congress, but NRA officials did not take into account a different set of obstacles with the “clean it up in the House or conference committee†approach.

Gun Owners of America, in a press release (March 4, 2004), spelled out the limitations of the failed strategy demanded by Senate Majority Leader Frist. GOA said, in part:

“Democrats would not have allowed a conference unless the survival of the gun ban was preordained. f House Majority Leader Tom Delay had tried to strip the bill of Senate amendments without a conference, it would have come back to the Senate as a fully amendable bill.â€

In other words, there was no chance that the NRA's “top legislative priority†was going to the President's desk without gun control attached to it. NRA and CCRKBA even finally got on board — last on board — to kill the bill. Apparently, NRA and CCRKBA leaders had joined the coalition of “Nervous Nellies†Knox had chastised a day earlier.

GOA further revealed on Friday (March 5) that:

“As far back as six months ago, Gun Owners of America had been warning Senate personnel that what happened this week in the U.S. Senate could easily happen, and we had laid out the necessary steps to make sure it didn't happen.â€

NRA management's legislative powerteam either didn't know how to play hardball or just didn't want to. If it's the latter — a lack of desire to flat out block any gun control amendments — one might reasonably wonder if the entire Senate show last week was a doomed-from-the-start dog and pony show designed to dupe the folks back home into thinking NRA saved them from the monster their own bill became, when according to GOA the monster could have been headed off at the gate. If it's the former — if NRA's lobbyists are just ignorant of Senate rules and procedures — why should anyone trust them to clean up a bill in a conference committee when they failed to do so before even though their own Director was on that “clean-up†committee?

Since I will not be exposing the Senate staffers who clearly recall what happened back in '93 and '94 — a likely excuse for ad hominem attack by people who believe that NRA-sponsored gun control should be given a free pass — let's look at some evidence you can independently verify for yourself.



NRA DIRECTOR AWARDED AFTER VOTING FOR 1994 BAN

Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) was an NRA Director in 1993 and '94. He voted for the Clinton/Feinstein semi-auto rifle and magazine ban, as an NRA Director. He left his NRA post after helping pass the gun ban — after the damage was done. The NRA's Institute for Legislative Action — NRA's legislative strategists — later gave Dingell their most prestigious award, shocking grassroots gun rights activists who remembered his betrayal.

“But that was seven years later that he got the award,†you say? “He must have changed his ways to be given 'the highest honor bestowed' by NRA's mighty legislative force.â€

Dingell may have been on the NRA's Board of Directors when he voted for the gun ban, but people make mistakes. Right? Let's look elsewhere then. But before we do, let's do remember historical facts:

NRA's leaders said leading up to the recent vote to renew the ban that they could “clean†the bill after it left the Senate and kill it in the House if they had to. Neal Knox even called gun rights activists names for opposing what he himself called NRA's “dangerous†strategy of hopefully cleaning the bill in the House. But in 1994, Rep. John Dingell was on the conference committee assigned to “clean†the bill. And even as an NRA Director on that conference committee, he then voted for the final package that came out of the conference committee — and he was later rewarded by the NRA.

Four days after Dingell's anti-Second Amendment vote, the Senate agreed to the gun control sent their way by Dingell and passed it by a vote of 61 to 38. A little over two weeks later, Mr. Clinton signed the bill into law at a big press conference while talking about how many lives he was saving with his pen.



WHO ELSE WAS REWARDED FOR SUPPORTING RIFLE BANS?

Dingell wasn't the only gun banner awarded after supporting the 1994 Clinton/Feinstein gun ban. Some gun banners in Congress got their rewards much sooner, too.

One such example involves California Congressman Elton Gallegly. Gallegly voted for the ban, but NRA's graders then gave him an “A-â€, endorsed him in his next race and even gave him money — leaving gun rights activists in California furious and very disillusioned. Gallegly later voted for the requirement to register private sales at gun shows to help further the gun registration agenda. Gallegly even has the hunters ticked off and labeling him as “anti-hunting.â€

In a very thorough analysis of NRA management's habit of giving undeserved “A†grades to gun grabbers, we find the following:

“In Virginia, 3 congressmen who voted many times against gun rights and supported the Lautenberg ban, kept their A+ ratings (part of a large club of turncoat A and A+ politicians). 1994, Tom Davis got an A after voicing support for Brady and the assault weapon ban and orchestrating a unanimous vote of support for the one-gun-a-month ban as a Fairfax County Supervisor.â€

In the same report we see that Joan Milke Flores was also given a post-ban boost from NRA's managers. Flores voted for the Los Angeles Assault Rifle Ban. The result, in her NRA grade? Need you ask?

“Aâ€.

And how was NRA rewarded by Flores for the phony grade she received?

“Soon after that, Flores was back in the press loudly announcing that she still supports the assault weapon ban.â€

Source: Sleeping With The Enemy: No More “A†Grades for Gun Grabbers

Other documented cases of NRA's managers giving “assault weapons†banners “A†grades include:

Tricia Hunter's bid to retain office as a California state senator was based on high-profile attacks on “killer assault rifles.†Her NRA grade was “A-â€.

“In North Carolina, the '94 elections, District 20 was represented by Ted Kaplan and Marvin Ward. Both favored assault weapon bans, handgun registration, and a one-gun-a-month ban. Their challengers were solid pro-gunners Ham Horton and Mark McDaniels (who fought tooth and nail for CCW). Nevertheless, NRA-ILA upgraded both anti-gun incumbents to “A†(one was initially a C), endorsed them, and supported them by mailing orange alert cards to NRA members in their district. Kaplan and Ward lost anyway, as incensed local groups like Grass Roots NC broke ranks with NRA-ILA and helped elect the pro-gun challengers.â€

“In Virginia, 3 congressmen who voted many times against gun rights and supported the Lautenberg ban, kept their A+ ratings (part of a large club of turncoat A and A+ politicians). [In] 1994, Tom Davis got an A after voicing support for Brady and the assault weapon ban and orchestrating a unanimous vote of support for the one-gun-a-month ban as a Fairfax County Supervisor.â€

“In Pennsylvania (1993), then Republican Minority Whip Matt Ryan INTRODUCED an assault rifle ban. In 1994, he kept his A+ rating. The same A+ sellout rammed through ILA's infamous Act 17 betrayal of PA gun owners. Activists have had to waste years of hard work trying to fix Act 17, but the damage may never be fully repaired.â€

Source: Sleeping With The Enemy: No More “A†Grades for Gun Grabbers

There are other such cases, of course. But the point is made: even after praising, supporting, endorsing and even voting for and INTRODUCING gun bans, politicians still get “A†grades from the National Rifle Association. Included in that list are those who specifically supported the 1994 Clinton/Feinstein federal ban. Perhaps that explains at least some of the mistrust of NRA's management and their strategies.



NRA'S “SECOND AMENDMENT CHAMPION†VOTES TO RENEW 1994 BAN

In the NRA's “America's First Freedom†magazine (October 2002), Sen. Gordon Smith's (R-OR) candidacy was promoted by the NRA. As I reported that same month,

“The interview is actually a series of softball questions designed to let Smith promote his candidacy without actually challenging him on any gun-related positions or issues. In the interview, Smith is pictured gazing skyward, heroically, and is quoted about his position on gun rights.â€

When NRA glorified Smith in their magazine, he had already: voted Yes on a mandatory gun lock bill; sponsored an amendment to further restrict gun shows just like Sen. McCain wants to do and nearly succeeded in doing; supported limits on magazine capacity; and sponsored an amendment “to require that a kid who comes to school with his hunting rifle in his car must be imprisoned for 24 hours.â€

Rather than expose him as the gun controller he is, NRA distributed an endorsement calling Smith “A SECOND AMENDMENT CHAMPION.†Click here to see it for yourself. GOA tried to get Smith to go on record about his positions on gun rights-related issues, but he refused. In spite of his record, NRA wooed and cuddled the anti-gunner anyway and called him “A SECOND AMENDMENT CHAMPION.†They raised money for his campaign and urged people to volunteer time to help him win — and even used the gun bans in Britain and the “don't say it can't happen here†fundraising pitch, too. (See NRA's fundraising letter for Smith's campaign: Page 1, Page 2.)

Surely there should be some kind of payoff for turning a blind eye to the gun control efforts of an elected official, right? Surely NRA managers going out of their way to support someone who had already supported gun control should mean he'll vote against a rifle and magazine ban... right?

Wrong. Senator Gordon Smith just voted to renew the Feinstein rifle and magazine ban when it came to a vote on Tuesday, March 2, 2004. NRA endorsed Smith even while Oregon Firearms Federation was exposing his support as a gun controller. OFF was labeled as “an NRA basher†for telling the truth about Smith and objecting to NRA's support for him. OFF president Kevin Starrett knew Smith would vote for the gun ban, because he paid attention to the man's record — while NRA was busy blowing cover, in their own magazine, and raising money, for yet another in a long, disturbing line of NRA-supported gun controllers.

“But Smith just screwed NRA on this vote,†you say. “That was nearly a year and a half ago when they supported him,†you complain. “NRA wouldn't support Smith again after he just voted for the gun ban!â€

We shall see. To cover their obvious miscalculation, NRA's officials are suddenly telling people that Smith is now an “Fâ€, but if they are true to form, they will suck up to him again come election time — even if one of their own members runs against him. Be patient and watch. NRA Management gives “A†grades to gun grabbers, and they've been doing so for a long time. They already knew Smith was a fan of gun control — they knew it when they called him “A SECOND AMENDMENT CHAMPION†and urged people to fund him, vote for him and work for his campaign. That is how the NRA does business. If you don't like that fact, you're not alone.



CURRENT NRA DIRECTOR WORKING AGAINST US

Some gun owners are candy-coating the fact that NRA's current Director Sen. Larry Craig supports gun controls. Craig just introduced, co-sponsored and endorsed a law designed to demonize one kind of ammunition over another. Craig co-sponsored and just voted Yes on a law to make police officers super-citizens in direct opposition to the equal protection doctrine and states' rights no matter how damaging it would be to gun rights — no matter how many gun rights organizations oppose such a travesty. He's been giving aid and comfort to the enemy, as an NRA Director — being a Dingell Lite. Craig even co-sponsored the gun show restriction amendment alongside Sen. McCain in 1999.

Because Craig is so much better on guns than most Senators — no doubt about that — some people ignore his transgressions. But uncompromising gun rights activists prefer substance over style, they know gun control when they see it, and they expect “no gun control†from an NRA Director. Is that really too much to ask? Is it?



WHY DON'T PEOPLE TRUST THE NRA?

There are lots of documented reasons savvy gun owners do not trust the managers of the National Rifle Association to do their bidding faithfully. NRA management has a long — very long — history of supporting gun control. From an historical perspective, NRA's managers helped get the first gun laws on the books in D.C., Pennsylvania and “other states†and supported the National Firearms Act of 1934 — the first major federal gun law. NRA's President was too busy proudly passing gun control legislation to stop and consider the Second Amendment. That is a documented fact. The NRA supported the Federal Firearms Act and the Dodd Bill to amend it many years later. NRA-supported gun control also led up to the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, too.

Too far in the past? Not Relevant Anymore? Let's fast forward. In 1997, NRA had a President who called one kind of rifle “inappropriate for private ownership†— a rifle so suited to militia use it's used worldwide. Five years later, the same formerly NRA-labeled “anti-gun die-hard†was still NRA's president and was still saying that guns “made him nervous.†Later that same year, NRA's “good friend of the Second Amendment†called for a .50 caliber rifle ban — yet another indication that an NRA endorsement does not necessarily inspire well-educated gun owners.

Last year, NRA's “chief attorney†told a U.S. Circuit Court that you don't have standing to bring a lawsuit unless you are arrested and prosecuted. He did so in an attempt to try to prevent a Second Amendment case from being heard on Second Amendment grounds.

Less than a year ago, NRA once again endorsed a gun controller over a superior candidate. NRA vigorously supports gun registration. Just a few months ago, a key attorney on the NRA's team even admitted in open court that they want to register handguns — while making a Second Amendment argument, no less. NRA officials even work directly with law enforcement agencies to enforce gun registration edicts under threat of felony prosecution, and to “help†gun owners register their weapons. NRA's lobbyist in California wants to help hide police corruption. A leader of the NRA affiliate in another state opposes letting you protect yourself in your own vehicle unless the government gives you permission to do so — permission to protect your own sacred existence.

NRA management gives money and lots of support to the federal prosecution of gun laws that need to be repealed. Mayb that explains why their spokesperson runs from a question about repealing gun laws that are getting good, decent, innocent people killed. Who needs to repeal gun laws, right? Let's give the feds hundreds of millions of dollars to enforce them harshly and put people in prison for exercising their Second Amendment rights, say the NRA's leaders.

Maybe people have good reason to withhold their trust from this “National Rifle Association.†The above is just a small sample of the available intel on NRA Management's Gun Control Agenda.
 
On the whole, I think the piece started off well enough with a valid discussion of legislative strategy and an excellent critique of the NRAs voting grades. However, with his distaste for the NRA, Angel has omitted some facts and taken a unique view of others that I would have to disagree with.

Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) was an NRA Director in 1993 and '94. He voted for the Clinton/Feinstein semi-auto rifle and magazine ban, as an NRA Director.

Dingell voted AGAINST the ban initially and voted against the ban on every free vote. Dingell voted FOR the ban after it had been amended to the larger Omnibus Crime bill that covered a whole bunch of territory. By this point, the Democrats had enforced party discipline and Dingell's choice was to commit political suicide for the NRA (and still see the bill passed) or vote against the NRA.

I'm not saying Dingell deserves a free pass or the subsequent award; but I think that detail sheds just a bit of light on the story and wish KABA had included it.

NRA'S “SECOND AMENDMENT CHAMPION†VOTES TO RENEW 1994 BAN

In the NRA's “America's First Freedom†magazine (October 2002), Sen. Gordon Smith's (R-OR) candidacy was promoted by the NRA.

NRA also supported Elizabeth Dole and Mary Landrieu - two Senators with an anti-gun voting record and quotes to support it much like Sen. Smith. The difference is that Landrieu and Dole both voted against renewal. Not that I don't agree with a lot of the criticism of NRAs voting grades and of Smith in particular; but nobody has a crystal ball here.

CURRENT NRA DIRECTOR WORKING AGAINST US

Some gun owners are candy-coating the fact that NRA's current Director Sen. Larry Craig supports gun controls.

I don't know exactly who KABA is trying to sell that line to; but I listened to the debate with many others here and I think this accusation is unwarranted. Senator Craig stood up and was an eloquent voice for every gun owner here.

KABA had called Craig a sellout for the amendment above BEFORE THEY HAD EVEN SEEN THE AMENDMENT TEXT. They then published a legal analysis of the amendment to justify their position that was blatantly wrong and which they were forced to retract. Apparently, they still seem to be of the opinion that Sen. Craig is a sellout despite that.

Just a few months ago, a key attorney on the NRA's team even admitted in open court that they want to register handguns

This is the type of twisting of facts that groups like VPC would be proud of. This issue has been hashed out thoroughly here, so I'll just list the links:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45229&highlight=Halbrook
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44899&highlight=Halbrook
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44556&highlight=Halbrook
 
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Oh, Judas Priest, here we go again.

LawDog
 
'Dog - I have hopes that the facts will be debated on their own merit or lack thereof, rather than the usual vituperative "KABA sucks" we're so accustomed to.
 
I just wish the NRA would take some Viagra and stop pretending that conceading points is going to win them any friends.
Such as Wayne LePuke's statement that the NRA believes in Gun Free School Zones.
:rolleyes:
Did that win them any new friends? The NRA remains the punchline in Liberal jokes... Appearing moderate isn't a strength here.
They need to BATTLE for our rights instead of using membership dues to buy even more exotic leather chairs for the Board Room.
 
I have hopes that the facts will be debated on their own merit or lack thereof, rather than the usual vituperative "KABA sucks" we're so accustomed to.

Why? Since KABA thinks everyone else exceppt them "sucks" at least the debate would be in terms they understand.

Heck look at the words/language they use...reminds me of Moscow, 1936

WildbanshamayaandhisslaveringrunningdogsAlaska
 
I see that any logical, intelligent discussion is unlikely to happen...

As was stated earlier in another thread Ken, I am KABA, as are hundreds if not thousands of other members here. I am "they", frankly we are "they". Am I to assume that your invectives apply to me personally? Or to all of the members here, who are members there? Are all of us here who contribute to KABA, "Shamaya's slavering running dogs" Ken?

All I ask is for discussion of the points, calmly and logically. Debate the facts and keep your personal feelings about KABA out of it please.
 
I see that any logical, intelligent discussion is unlikely to happen...

On this topic; That is 100% correct. We might as well start to debate smoking bans again. :D

I dont like it when KABA attacks the NRA. I think it is childish and turns many people off to KABA and Angel himself. BUT sometimes they(NRA) need to be called on their crap. It is good that Angel keeps his eyes open to NRA dealings. My recent pet peeve with them is their trying to quash the CATO lawsuit in DC. First they try and get their suit joined and then after that they try and kill it by eliminating the ban. Of course the ban would still exist but the CATO suit would be over.
 
Ok this is how I see it. I'll try to stick with logic and facts, but neither is my strong suit. :)

If the NRA wanted to sell us out they had the best win/win situation that they could ever hope for a couple weeks ago. They could have gave the antis their AWB, and they could have gotten lawsuit protection. This is what many people who dislike the NRA were predicting.

However it didn't happen. Larry Craig put up one heck of a fight, and then the bill was killed rather than have a new ban.

So if the NRA was going to sell out, that was the time that they would have done it. Nope, I think that the NRA has changed a lot over the last decade (for the better) and that they are actually trying to do the right thing.
 
I am KABA, as are hundreds if not thousands of other members here. I am "they", frankly we are "they". Am I to assume that your invectives apply to me personally? Or to all of the members here, who are members there? Are all of us here who contribute to KABA, "Shamaya's slavering running dogs" Ken?

The "slavering running dogs comment" was tongue in cheek, sort of a sarcastic riposte to the regular KABA invective..

And unfortunately for you and the other KABA members here, the situation is the same as in the Democratic party. There are god fearin, freedom lovin, gun totin Democrats....they get tarnished with the same brush as their idiot leadership.

And its gonna be the same way with KABA...KABA is not the membership who belong to what they think is a gun rights organization (and whether KABA is that is another story), rather KABA is Mr Shamayas little baby that he uses as his vehicle to continue his tired little war with the NRA..

Ask yourself how much credibilty KABA has outside it membership...

WildletmeknowAlaska
 
And unfortunately for you and the other KABA members here, the situation is the same as in the Democratic party. There are god fearin, freedom lovin, gun totin Democrats....they get tarnished with the same brush as their idiot leadership.

This is mostly due to the general characterizations (brushstrokes) sans any differentiation between KABA, Angel and the other persons for whom KABA provides a venue for their publications, that persons such as yourself tend to paint Ken.
 
IIRC the AWB passed with a majority of ONE vote in the Congress.

MicroBalrog, you remember one vote correctly; but the wrong vote.

Here is a quick legislative history of the 1994 semi-auto ban:

On November 9, 1993, the Senate is debating the Omnibus Crime Bill (HR 3355), a giant package of pork for every Senator in the land that was 1.2 million bytes of legislation in its final form and had already passed the House. Senator Feinstein proposed S.AMDT 1152 of the 103rd Congress that day - the amendment that would become the semi-auto ban. After eight days of delay, there was a vote on the amendment and it passed 56-43 (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00375).

Two days on November 19, 1993 later the Senate voted for the entire bill, amendments and all by a 95-4 vote (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00384).

Since the bill differed from the original House version, it was sent to the House for a conference committee...

Meanwhile, in the House, then Rep. Schumer of New York had introduced a bill banning semi-autos as well (HR 4296). It came up on May 5, 1994 and barely passed 216-214. This pretty much spelled doom for any attempts to strip the semi-auto ban from the Omnibus Crime Bill as it showed the votes weren't there. Dingell voted NO on this bill. It went to the Senate for a vote that never happened because...

On May 17, 1994 - they began appointing conferees for HR 3355 on both sides. On August 21, 1994 the Omnibus Crime Bill reported out of conference with semi-auto ban was presented to the House and passed 235-195 (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll416.xml). Dingell voted YES on this bill.

The bill then went to the Senate on August 25th, where the conference report for HR 3355 was approved 61-38 (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=2&vote=00295).

On September 13, 2004, Clinton signed the semi-auto ban into law.
 
Ask yourself how much credibilty KABA has outside it membership...

KABA = the first group to actually dig up congressional records related to NFA-34

KABA = The only group that supported the Haney defense fund, that publicised the Bob Steward trial, and that brought us US vs. Stewart.

KABA supporters and contributors = Neil Smith, Vin Suprinowitch (sp), M. Williamson, and our own Oleg Volk

KABA = the 20,000-signature petition asking for 2A enforcement (Jeff Cooper liked that one, too!)

KABA = aided in the produciton of Innocents Betrayed. Where was the NRA?

KABA = aided the Russian Civil Arms Union. Where was the NRA?

KABA = supports repeal of GCA-68. Where is the NRA?

KABA = supported Colorado "Alaska" bill. Where was the NRA?
 
You forgot KABA = the group which supported Silviera, an effort that finally read the 2A out of the Constitution, once and for all, for citizens living in the 9th Circuit, and which came within a whisker of probably doing the same to all of America.:rolleyes:

Micro, I would note that nothing on your list is an actual accomplishment, but why dwell on that one niggling detail? ROCK ON DUDE!!!!
 
This is my one and only post on the KABA vs NRA issue

I haven't weighed in on this issue before, but I think I've read enough. KMKeller said;
I have hopes that the facts will be debated on their own merit or lack thereof, rather than the usual vituperative "KABA sucks" we're so accustomed to.

Facts would be a good thing to start with. Let's see some. You start off with this;
According to three U.S. Senate staffers — who worked on The Hill during the original 1993/94 semi-auto rifle and magazine ban and still work as Senate staffers today

Who are these three unnamed senate staffers? Who do they work for? What is their agenda? I want to see names here. Anybody can say they heard anything from anyone. Heresay is not admissible to me. I am sick and tired of this juvenile "he told me that the NRA did this, she told me that KABA did that". This type of unattributed and unverifiable claim is used all the time by children, people I arrest and others who want to stir the pot and try to remain unaccountable for their actions. I want to know, who are these senate staffers? Basically if they aren't willing to put their names on what they say, they have no credibility. Anytime I read or hear about the evil that other people do, but the claims are anonymous I dismiss them out of hand.

rant over

The bill had had the Feinstein semi-auto ban amendment attached to it two days earlier, by a vote of 56 to 43.) No objection meant that no filibuster would be possible. An objection to the unanimous consent agreement would have delayed the crime bill at least through the holidays and into the next year, giving the grassroots critical time to mobilize against the bill.

The grassroots had been mobilized and fighting this for months prior to the unanimous consent agreement. How do I know, I was there. The grassroots had been fighting this since January of 93. I still have copies of the letters to my senators and their responses. By November of 93, many of us down here in the trenches at the grassroots level were already getting worn out. What do your unnamed senate staffers have to say about the success of a fillibuster? I don't believe it would have been possible given the makeup of the senate at that time especially with Clinton preaching from the bully pulpit. The argument that more time to mobilize the grassroots would have made a difference is frankly quite ludicrus. Everyone who was involved in the fight at that time knew we were in the fight for our lives. We started fighting on inauguration day and fought until Clinton signed the law.

According to these Senate staffers, the NRA explained that they did not mind the gun ban passing the Senate and going to a conference committee — where NRA officials felt the gun ban could be killed. (Of course, this strategy failed.) NRA officials' strategy was to keep the legislative process moving so they could get to the Brady Bill and make sure the instant background check was nailed down in it.

Once again we are to accept heresay as evidence of collusion by the NRA in passing the assault weapons ban. KMKeller, would you want a jury to accept heresay evidence that you were guilty of a heinous crime? That's the same thing you're asking me to do here. So I'm publically calling you out Name your sources so they can be publically confronted and cross examined or have them discounted. A key component of our justice system is based on the accused being able to confront the witnesses against him. Produce them!

This pattern — “we'll fix it in a conference committee or kill it afterwards†— was repeated in the recent Senate shootout over the effort to protect the firearms industry from frivolous lawsuits brought by gun banners trying to put the gun industry in financial ruin.

That's funny, I seem to remember the NRA sending a text message to the senators on their Blackberry pagers while they were on the senate floor voting telling them to kill the bill. I saw this live on CSPAN2 with my own eyes. Are you insinuating that the NRA could have stopped the AWB from being attached to bill? If you are, where's your proof? Were you in the senate chambers when the deal on the unanimous consent agreement was cut? Do you think it might have been possible that they never would have gotten the bill to the floor without the agreement they cut. I don't for one minute believe that S1085 would ever had been voted on without giving them a chance to attach the AWB. Cloture would never have passed. How is this the NRAs fault?

The NRA has made plenty of mistakes, name one person or organization who hasn't. If KABA was really concerned about RKBA they would attack the antis in congress, not the NRA. What has KABA done to elect a progun candidate anywhere? Can you tell me? Give me the name of one legislator I can ask if KABA was a factor in his/her election. Can you name one former legislator who would tell me that KABA cost him/her their seat in congress?

Perhaps you guys in KABA should get out some old high school civics texts and study up on how our government actually works. You might be a little more effective in helping us keep the ground we've got and take back the ground we've lost. You need to make up your mind, you're with us in this fight or you're not. I'm not going to waste anymore time debating who cares more about RKBA. If you or Angel don't like the way the NRA runs, why don't you run for a directors position and change it. In the meantime, I think that you divert resources from the real battle with this childish infighting. If KABA has any real, verifiable information about NRA misconduct, I'll be more then happy to listen. But heresay doesn't cut it. And it shouldn't cut it with any reasonable person.

Jeff
 
whisker of probably doing the same to all of America

Or the reverse...

nothing on your list is an actual accomplishment

US. vs. Stewart is not (took down a chunk of the GCA/NFA)? Uncovering critical documents is not?

Destruction of the MMM is not? (March/Shamaya)?

Innocents Betrayed is not?

You have strange standards of accomplishment.s

P.S. For a group which is around for four years, these are pretty big.

And they haven't said they want the machinegun ban to stay in place, like some NRA reps did.:neener:
 
Interesting little tantrum you've got going there Jeff, and one rather venomously aimed at me. Look at the tagline Jeff, I didn't write the piece, I merely posted it and asked people to debate it.

You may want to get that blood pressure checked Jeff, and point your sputum somewhere else.

"You guys in KABA"?? I don't write for KABA, I'm just a member. Just like I'm a member of the NRA, JPFO and GOA. I neither write for, or contribute to anything they do.

Anytime I read or hear about the evil that other people do, but the claims are anonymous I dismiss them out of hand.
So, as a cop, if you get an anonymous tip that someone is molesting their child, you ignore it and turn away?

Get a grip.
 
Or the reverse...

C'mon Micro, what did Silviera ACTUALLY accomplish?

I also can hardly wait for Jim March to weigh in on KABA. I'll grab a ringside seat for that one.
 
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