OK - got one for you - received guns via mail in error

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Blackbeard said:
Side question for the logging option: Are the revolvers he received C&R eligible? If not, are there potential license/criminal issues with logging a non-C&R firearm in his book?
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In post 1 the OP says that at least one is, to his knowledge, C&R, and that the other one might be.

But I believe that you're correct. An 03 FFL doesn't mean anything if a gun isn't C&R.
 
Regarding the "otherwise obtained" language in the federal code for non-FFLs, I wonder if one might apply the UCC with regard to whether a shipment of goods has been accepted or not. If a seller ships you goods, you have a reasonable time to inspect them for conformity. If they don't conform, you have to make an effective rejection of the shipment (notify seller and allow them to remove the goods).

I don't know if this would save you from being charged, but it would be some evidence that you did not intend to receive firearms illegally.
 
Blackbeard said:
Regarding the "otherwise obtained" language in the federal code for non-FFLs, I wonder if one might apply the UCC with regard to whether a shipment of goods has been accepted or not. If a seller ships you goods, you have a reasonable time to inspect them for conformity. If they don't conform, you have to make an effective rejection of the shipment (notify seller and allow them to remove the goods).

I don't know if this would save you from being charged, but it would be some evidence that you did not intend to receive firearms illegally.
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I would suspect that, as a non-FFL holder, merely receiving a gun from a contract carrier would be considered a violation of the law.

The first thing I would do as a non-licensee if I were stuck in this situation would be to retain the services of an attorney to attempt to rectify the situation without exposing myself to criminal prosecution. I can't keep it; as a non-licensee it isn't legal for me to receive guns through the mail or from a contract carrier. I can't transfer it to someone else since I received it illegally. Turning it over to the authorities is admission of having been party to a crime. This would put me in a real jam.
 
I would suspect that, as a non-FFL holder, merely receiving a gun from a contract carrier would be considered a violation of the law.

The first thing I would do as a non-licensee if I were stuck in this situation would be to retain the services of an attorney to attempt to rectify the situation without exposing myself to criminal prosecution. I can't keep it; as a non-licensee it isn't legal for me to receive guns through the mail or from a contract carrier. I can't transfer it to someone else since I received it illegally. Turning it over to the authorities is admission of having been party to a crime. This would put me in a real jam.
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And that is an absurd result. You don't know what's in the box until you open it. Opening a box cannot be a crime. You must have the opportunity to reject the shipment. You shouldn't have to call a lawyer because you got a package by mistake.

If this is were allowed to be considered a crime, it provides a good opportunity to get rid of people you don't like by shipping them a firearm and then reporting them to ATF.
 
Blackbeard said:
Regarding the "otherwise obtained" language in the federal code for non-FFLs, I wonder if one might apply the UCC with regard to whether a shipment of goods has been accepted or not. If a seller ships you goods, you have a reasonable time to inspect them for conformity....
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How much time and what do you mean by "conformity" here? According to the OP he knew immediately upon opening the package and reading the enclosed bill of sale that the guns weren't his.

Anyway, the UCC is a matter of state civil law (in whatever form the model Uniform Commercial Code might have been adopted by a State). It was conceived of for the purpose of resolving civil disputes between parties to a business transaction when the dispute relates to matters covered by the UCC. Its application to issues arising under a federal criminal statute is doubtful.

GoWolfpack said:
....Turning it over to the authorities is admission of having been party to a crime. This would put me in a real jam.
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Not necessarily.

I'd have no hesitation calling my local police department immediately upon opening the package, explaining the situation and asking how I could forthwith put the guns which aren't mine into the custody of the police. No prosecutor is going to pursue charges against me on those facts.

But in the OP's situation, given that a period of time has passed since he received the guns, I agree that it would be best to engage a lawyer to arrange turning the guns into the authorities.
 
I would suggest that you verify the sender is an FFL and once verified, ship them back in the same box they came in. The cost is insignificant versus the potential trouble of keeping them. If the sender is not an FFL then call the police to report a crime.
 
Thanks all for your comments. I didn't mean to stir up a controversy.

Just as a follow up - I called the auction house (who is an FFL) and we talked about it. The address on the bill of sale was NOT who the firearms were to go to - it was to go to the recipient's FFL. The owner of the auction house said they would email me the address of the intended FFL and would reimburse me for any expenses incurred in shipping to them...although they have never sent me the promised information several days later.

The auction house included their FFL with the shipment.

I'm pretty surprised that they have not provided me the information...seems to be to be s pretty slipshod way to run a business. If I have time, I will call them back tomorrow to see if I can get the ball rolling.
 
This discussion got me to wondering what might have happened if you had realized there were likely firearms in the box, had refused it, and returned it to the PO to return to sender? Wonder if it would have made its way back to the sender?
 
Follow up - 5 days since my last post - never a call back from the auction house/FFL.

I think I am going to follow Mman's advice and ship these back to the auction house, whether I am reimbursed for the expense or not.
 
O.P.,

I urge you to create a paper trail (emails or letters) to the auction house documenting the problem and your attempts to resolve it. Rather than sending the guns back at this point I would send the Auction House a registered letter about the problem.

I would think the party that brought the guns would be making inquiries to the Auction House also. Really strange situation.

C.Y.A. Remember telephone conversations are meaningless in Court.
 
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Is there a way to contact the person -- in writing -- who bought the guns and update him on the situation? Let him breath on the auction house for you. :cuss:
 
My suggestion would be to contact the auction house. My concern would be when the purchaser doesn't receive his guns he might contact the auction house and report them missing or stolen. This could cause a report to be filed with the police/atf . If you ever sell those guns or have your books checked they might have a problem with posession of stolen merchandise. Even though it was purely accidental it may not be perceived that way.
 
Thanks - I have no intention of keeping the items. I do have the mailing address of the person who bought the items. I didn't send anything to him, as I thought this would have been resolved before a letter would have gotten there.

Good suggestion about a paper trail.

Jim
 
This reminds me of a incident a few years ago around my neighborhood.

These kids would use fraudulent checks and credit cards to order stuff off the internet.

They have the packages sent to houses with no people in it.

They got busted because some lady caught them getting the packages in a house next to her, where nobody had lived in for a year or so.

It's possible since your an FFL that somebody had the packages sent to you, but you got the mail first.

Just throwing that possibility out there.
 
Its been 10 Days.

You're not trying to get a lost dog back to traveling owners that forgot him at a truck stop.

Unless you're 100% sure your FFL status is a "Get out of jail FREE card", turn them over to the police and tell the auction house....... or... accept that you may become far more involved than you ever wanted to be.
 
jmace57, would you be kind enough to answer one question that has been apparently fueling Frank's irritation at everyone here - would you simply say yes or no that the shipper was in a different state than you? That could put paid to some of the controversy. Good on you to do the right thing, even if the auction house won't, and you might post that name, since someone that slipshod might be someone we don't want to do business with.
 
OK armoredman. Yes - I am in Texas and the shipper was in Nebraska. Actual purchaser is in Florida.

As a follow up, the FFL (auction house) contacted me last night (via email) and asked if I had shipped the item - I told him that he had never given me the shipping address.



Additional follow-up - got the ship to address today from FFL.
 
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If you open it you have to deal with moving firearms across state lines. If you just ship it back unopened is there the same issue. I get miss addressed packages a number of times a year. If I didn't order something, I don't open boxes until I've contacted the shipper.
 
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