Old Lewis & James Percussion DB Shotgun

[Catpop]

I have an old blackpowder double barrel shotgun. It has rabbit eared sidelocks, 30" damascus 12 gauge barrels, double triggers.
The sidelocks are engraved and have "Lewis & James" also engraved on each one.
The top of the barrel is engraved with "London Fine Twisted Steele" The word steel is not clearly visible, but my best guess.
"1908 OCT" is hand carved under the barrels in the wood.
It is in excellent shape, but I wouldnt dare fire it. I feel it was made post 1830 (percussion) and pre 1908 (carved date in stock)
Can anyone shed any light on this old shotgun?
Thanks in advance, Catpop

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

I looked for "Lewis & James" in the list of London Gunmakers at

http://www.cornellpubs.com/free-files/Canadian and London Gunmakers BW Portrait.pdf

and did not see those names listed. However, the list begins in 1850 and its possible the gun was made before that year.

The "proof of the pudding" will be to remove the barrel wedge, and unhook the barrels from the stock (like doing a T/C Hawken) and looking at the proof marks on the underside of both barrels.

All European & UK firearms will display proof marks.

Go to:http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf
and look at the list for "British Proof Marks".

Belgium gunmakers had a tendency to produce shotguns with British-sounding names or using similar names to catch the unsuspecting customer in the US into buying a lesser-grade shotgun with an almost impressive maker's name.

You will find out there, Belgium-made shotguns that have on the lockplate, "W. Richards" to infer being made by Westley Richards gunmakers of London.

Belgium-made shotguns are identified by a oval or egg-shaped outline with the letters "L G E" inside the outline. The letters are the stamp for the Proof House in Liege, Belgium.

Good luck, I hope you have an English-made shotgun.

Are you anywheres near Matthews Point Marina off the Neuse?

 

[Crawdad1]

I found a G.E. Lewis or G.E. Lewis & Sons of Loveday Street Birmingham but I haven't found any connection with James. Is there an address on the shotgun? I agree with D. Buck, we need to know the proof marks before we can go any further.

 

[StrawHat]

Just because the barrels are marked London Fine Twisted Steel does not indicate where the shotgun was built. Many shotguns built in the USA used barrels imported from England or Germany.

 

[Crawdad1]

StrawHat makes a good point, maybe not an English maker at all, we could be looking in the wrong books.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I have an ancient English caplock sxs 12 gauge damascus smoothbore fowler. It had some Birmingham marks on it so I contacted the current curator of the Birmingham Proofhouse and confirmed the barrels were proofed 1845-1855 prior to the ACW, but could not find the maker (per the makers mark on the locks) in their records. Perhaps the London proof house can provide a similar search service.

 

[Catpop]

Dbuckstopshere,
I pulled up the page on proofs and indeed did find my proofs listed as the "1868-1925 Birmingham definitive blackpowder proof for shotguns". It looks like the crown over an x , with some other markings outside the x. It is very small but an exact replica of the page's drawing as I see it.
I guess this does confirm something?
We might could get together and let you have a look at her since you are close to me.
Thanks for all the great help!
Catpop

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

The earlier Birmingham Proof House mark is a crown over crossed sceptres with the letters B, P, and C for Birmingham Proof Company.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

As mentioned in previous posts, the gun could have been made in the US from parts. Much like today, gun-makers will order a dozen Siler locks and a dozen Green Mountain barrels and a dozen "furniture" sets in brass or steel from Track of The Wolf and put out a dozen guns over a period of time for sale.

The gunsmith of the 19th century went down to nearest hardware store and did the same thing, only every part located was in one place, like today's Home Depot.

So, a mid-19th century American-made shotgun could have been made with barrels made in England, locks made in Belgium, and iron furniture made by local blacksmiths.

 

[Catpop]

So alas I am back to square one with the exception of a set of Birmingham proofed barrels made between 1868 and 1908.
Do you reckon it is worth a c note?
Catpop

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Without looking at it in "the flesh" or seeing very clear photos taken with a digital camera on a tripod to make everything sharp, I hate to answer.

I get down to my sailboat about once a month at Matthews Point Marina. If I know I'm going in near future, I can send you a PM or you can send me an e-mail to [email protected], (thats an "underscore" between "100" & "10x", as in "100_10x") and you can provide your contact info.

I have to go down in December to bring back the outboard, and get the boat ready for winter in the water.

I'll be happy to assist if I can.

Sometimes you get lucky…….. often times, the seller gets lucky.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

$100 for a wallhanger...perhaps.

 

[jaxenro]

Seen some Belgian guns marked "London Fine Twist"

 

[jaxenro]

Btw I might give you a C note for it or a interesting trade

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Not to be sacreligious towards old Damascus barreled shotguns, but I had a redneck cousin that used to shoot patched frozen tatertot slugs out of an old caplock sxs like a potatogun. He had the air/ fuel ratio down to a science. The calculated chamber pressure was about 60 psi. This in no way is an endorsement of such a practice. At least he was smart enough to not load it with bp.

 

[Catpop]

Haha but what the fuel he used?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

He used generic starting fluid and sometimes 6mm airsoft plastic shot.

 

[Palehorseman]

Something to remember, the Belgians had the strictest proof test there was at the time and marked barrels so any further work done on barrels could be detected.

But some of the British makers were often a bit sneaky. Barrels were proofed and returned to maker, whereas some would remove more metal from proofed barrels to make the finished piece lighter.

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Well, Catpop and I got together, and by the looks of the shotgun, I'd say he got his money's worth and a little more.

If I had the money, and if he was willin' I'd double his money spent. But $ 200 is too dear so close to Christmas.

The shotgun unfortunately, was kept over the proverbial fireplace for years by the PO, and heat from the bricks did a number on the stock finish on one side. The heat probably shrunk the wood a little also, as the trigger-guard final and the entry thimble for the ramrod are both sitting above the wood.

I believe the entire gun is English. Lewis & James may have been the maker or may have been the name of sporting good store in the UK. I gave him some sources to check on the name.

If it were mine, I would give it to local custom gunmaker, Mike Ehinger, who builds side-by-side cartridge rifles with back-action locks for around $25K, and give him $ 500 to restore the gun to its original condition.

Catpop got lucky, and maybe next year, I can talk him out of it in a suitable trade.

At first, I felt a little guilty having someone drive five hours round-trip to look at a muzzle loading shotgun, but he was happy with the appraisal, and I got a jar of nuts for my time.

Its not the first time "I was working for peanuts".

Catpop, that gun made my day. Glad you got it. Its a far cry from the numerous muzzleloading shotguns that I've seen that have little value.

 

[Catpop]

D. Buck Stopshere and I had a most wonderful get together the other day. I thoroughly enjoyed talking to such a fine and knowledgable gentleman. And I'm glad he was willing to take the time to see me and my old gun. He shared a wealth of old gun knowledge with me I had never heard before. (And I've been shooting and collecting guns for the last 50 years, but mostly breechloaders) I was very pleased with the out come and only hope I can eventually solve this Lewis & James name thing in the future.
Buck did uncover another interesting clue while he examined the gun. It has a four digit number stamped on the underside rib of the barrels. Anybody have any experience with that?
Thanks for all help Buck
Sincerely Catpop

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

AFAIK, more than a few Birmingam or London proofed barrels were manufacturered by third parties FOR the various maker marks shown elsewhere on the gun...sometimes it was a hardware store who assembled the sg from parts as opposed to a actual gunmaker.
I have a four digit sn on the barrel only on my pre ACW English caplock double 12 g.