Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Recent threads on Russian and Turkish shotguns show there's a fair amount of interest in both SxS and O/U doubles that do not cost much new, and oft can be acquired used for a few hundred dollars.
Many newer imports are offered in bewildering variety, and there's no certainty that any given shotgun will be a treasure or trash.
And besides these, there's a plethora of older US made guns, of widely varying quality, and many older imports, oft Belgian. Some of these are so shoddy that firing one is akin to Russian Roulette, a sport I've little interest in.While some Vintagers insist on using old twist and Damascus barrels in old, well maintained Purdeys and Lefevres, none of them do in midlevel guns on down. There's a lesson there.
With ALL older guns, have a smith look them over first and determine if they are safe to be fired at all, and with what ammo if he/she deems them operable and safe.I'd still have that first shot fired off in the woods, tied to a tree and with a long string tied to the triggers. Cautious? Yup...
Most of these, both new and used, will not hold up under heavy use for long. Soft parts, loose tolerances, and a diet of inappropriate ammo by previous owners can mean it's no shooter after a few thousand rounds. And, oft parts are unavailable or in short supply at high prices.
However, not all of our shotguns need last as long as the pyramids and eat a flat of shells each and every week. A pure D quail or grouse gun may get through a season with a box or two through it, and thus last longer than one generation of shooter needs. Or an old family double(Checked out, of course) may give many an afternoon of pleasant small game hunting. There's something about making meat for dinner with a shotgun with plenty of hunts behind it, especially if those hunts were with kinfolk.
Also, some of these doubles serve well as bad weather guns for when conditions might be tough on a more expensive, prettier shotgun.
And many serendipitiously handle like Zorro's rapier."Feel" is subjective, and some otherwise sorry shotguns swing beautifully. There are Cinderella shotguns out there waiting on Prince Charming.
Here's the common problems with inexpensive doubles, and surprisingly these pop up with the "better" name brands today.
The most common, and most serious, is that the barrels shoot to different Points Of Impact(POI).
SxS shotguns more commonly have divergence trouble in the horizontal plane, O/Us in the vertical, but some have both. Oft the top barrel in an O/U shoots flatter than the bottom. This may be less of a problem than seen at first glance. If one's shooting at flushing birds, the first shot often happens when the bird's rising steeply. The second occurs more often as the flight path flattens out.Other O/Us have the opposite, this is a pain in the wallet.
More troublesome is a SxS with the barrels shooting to different Zip Codes. One fellow I shot trap with had a Stagecoach Stoeger that had the left barrel printing a couple FEET off to port. They gave him a new one that shot much closer.
BTW, most makers think that if the centers of the patterns are within 8" of each other or so and both are more or less the same distance to Point Of Aim, it's close enough.IOW, they will not fix it under warranty.
High dollar shotguns like Kolars can be regulated but we're not talking about $10K shotguns.
My advice, if the thing shoots both barrels together, even if that's off POA a bit, live with it. Some shotgunners have favorite guns with divergence issues and they've adapted through long and frequent use. I don't recommend this, but it happens. And sometimes experimentation will find loads that ting the barrel vibration nodes just right, and impact as they should.
The next common problem is heavy,nasty triggers. An old Belgian clunker seemingly built by a blacksmith may go as heavy as 11 lbs, and would serve nicely at gunsmith school as a horrible example. Some can be tweaked SAFELY to a decent weight and crisped up by a QUALIFIED SMITH, but don't try this at home. And the hardness of those parts is suspect, so they may wear bad faster than say an 870.
Sorry to say, new shotguns are oft the worst violations.
Third, very common on older guns, is a stock with lots of drop at heel.Continental guns aren't as bad as old Crescents,I. Johnsons and Stevens, but they still push what's needed for the modern head down style.Oft pitch is off also with the modern forward stance rather than the upright stance used by our forefathers and mothers. This can take some getting used to.Allasame, a dropped stock is oft fast as heck for brush and snap shooting.
Forth, these often lack a pad, with many just having a plate, old and new. Easily fixed, and get the LOP right at the same time. Or just use a slipon pad if you want to keep it just like Uncle Zeb bought it waybackwhen.
All in all, these inexpensive doubles can be lots of fun, good cost per use, and so on, but Caveat Emptor.
HTH, sing out if there's something I missed....
Many newer imports are offered in bewildering variety, and there's no certainty that any given shotgun will be a treasure or trash.
And besides these, there's a plethora of older US made guns, of widely varying quality, and many older imports, oft Belgian. Some of these are so shoddy that firing one is akin to Russian Roulette, a sport I've little interest in.While some Vintagers insist on using old twist and Damascus barrels in old, well maintained Purdeys and Lefevres, none of them do in midlevel guns on down. There's a lesson there.
With ALL older guns, have a smith look them over first and determine if they are safe to be fired at all, and with what ammo if he/she deems them operable and safe.I'd still have that first shot fired off in the woods, tied to a tree and with a long string tied to the triggers. Cautious? Yup...
Most of these, both new and used, will not hold up under heavy use for long. Soft parts, loose tolerances, and a diet of inappropriate ammo by previous owners can mean it's no shooter after a few thousand rounds. And, oft parts are unavailable or in short supply at high prices.
However, not all of our shotguns need last as long as the pyramids and eat a flat of shells each and every week. A pure D quail or grouse gun may get through a season with a box or two through it, and thus last longer than one generation of shooter needs. Or an old family double(Checked out, of course) may give many an afternoon of pleasant small game hunting. There's something about making meat for dinner with a shotgun with plenty of hunts behind it, especially if those hunts were with kinfolk.
Also, some of these doubles serve well as bad weather guns for when conditions might be tough on a more expensive, prettier shotgun.
And many serendipitiously handle like Zorro's rapier."Feel" is subjective, and some otherwise sorry shotguns swing beautifully. There are Cinderella shotguns out there waiting on Prince Charming.
Here's the common problems with inexpensive doubles, and surprisingly these pop up with the "better" name brands today.
The most common, and most serious, is that the barrels shoot to different Points Of Impact(POI).
SxS shotguns more commonly have divergence trouble in the horizontal plane, O/Us in the vertical, but some have both. Oft the top barrel in an O/U shoots flatter than the bottom. This may be less of a problem than seen at first glance. If one's shooting at flushing birds, the first shot often happens when the bird's rising steeply. The second occurs more often as the flight path flattens out.Other O/Us have the opposite, this is a pain in the wallet.
More troublesome is a SxS with the barrels shooting to different Zip Codes. One fellow I shot trap with had a Stagecoach Stoeger that had the left barrel printing a couple FEET off to port. They gave him a new one that shot much closer.
BTW, most makers think that if the centers of the patterns are within 8" of each other or so and both are more or less the same distance to Point Of Aim, it's close enough.IOW, they will not fix it under warranty.
High dollar shotguns like Kolars can be regulated but we're not talking about $10K shotguns.
My advice, if the thing shoots both barrels together, even if that's off POA a bit, live with it. Some shotgunners have favorite guns with divergence issues and they've adapted through long and frequent use. I don't recommend this, but it happens. And sometimes experimentation will find loads that ting the barrel vibration nodes just right, and impact as they should.
The next common problem is heavy,nasty triggers. An old Belgian clunker seemingly built by a blacksmith may go as heavy as 11 lbs, and would serve nicely at gunsmith school as a horrible example. Some can be tweaked SAFELY to a decent weight and crisped up by a QUALIFIED SMITH, but don't try this at home. And the hardness of those parts is suspect, so they may wear bad faster than say an 870.
Sorry to say, new shotguns are oft the worst violations.
Third, very common on older guns, is a stock with lots of drop at heel.Continental guns aren't as bad as old Crescents,I. Johnsons and Stevens, but they still push what's needed for the modern head down style.Oft pitch is off also with the modern forward stance rather than the upright stance used by our forefathers and mothers. This can take some getting used to.Allasame, a dropped stock is oft fast as heck for brush and snap shooting.
Forth, these often lack a pad, with many just having a plate, old and new. Easily fixed, and get the LOP right at the same time. Or just use a slipon pad if you want to keep it just like Uncle Zeb bought it waybackwhen.
All in all, these inexpensive doubles can be lots of fun, good cost per use, and so on, but Caveat Emptor.
HTH, sing out if there's something I missed....
