Opinions on Henry rifles.

[CraigC]

"That brass, incidentally, has the same tensile strength as steel according to Anthony Imperato, and if you’re concerned about its longevity or overall strength with hotter .44-40 loads, he also says the rifle’s perfectly safe with any .44-40 load that meets SAAMI specifications, and that you can “rest assured this gun will withstand lifetimes of extensive shooting."

For brass to have the same tensile strength of steel there has to be an alloy in it. The Uberti frame is brass.

To be precise, any combination of two or more elemental metals is an alloy. Brass and bronze are both alloys.

Whether or not the Henry frame is stronger than Uberti is irrelevant. Just as it means very little that the steel framed 1873 is stronger yet. With standard pressure loads, neither is going to wear out or stretch. Folks are p utting tens of thousands of rounds through their Uberti 1860/1866 rifles without stretching the frames. The limitation is the design, not the materials used. If folks are thinking that a stronger bronze alloy in the Henry allows a little hot-rodding, better think again.

 

[DPris]

Craig, there have been reports of higher-volume brass Uberti frames stretching.
And in my comments, none of those were intended to convey the concept of hot-rodding ANY toggle design rifle.
My statements about the Henry alloy were simply intended to address long-term usage with STANDARD pressures, NO HOT-RODDING.

To further separate out the TWO issues here:

The alloy of the FRAME can matter with high-volume use.
The Henry alloy I would consider stronger than the Uberti brass material.
I would, therefore, consider little to no risk of long-term FRAME STRETCHING with the Henry brass Original, WITH standard ammunition pressures.

The TOGGLE-LINK ACTION is a very important limiting factor as far as handling higher pressures.
Both the Henry & Uberti use better modern steels in those toggle parts than the original vintage guns ever had.
They're stronger parts, technically, in heat-treating.
But- the toggle link setup is nowhere near as strong as the later solid-bolt lever-actions that followed with the rifles that were designed to replace the toggles.
Trying to go beyond SAMMI specs for the calibers that both brands' brass guns are chambered for CAN result in either premature wear or catastrophic failure IF you carry it too far.

With the brass-framed models of either brand, stick to standard pressures, do not hot-rod either one, and the Henry should present no risk of frame stretching.

And yes- brass is an alloy in itself, but when I refer to Henry's "alloy", I mean it has a different formulation with less brass and more "other" metals.
More of a mix.
Denis

 

[Crawdad1]

True but HRA uses another alloy to strengthen their brass. I would rather have a barrel to frame pairing with the stronger frame.

 

[CraigC]

Denis, it wasn't your posts that I read that way.

The only reports I've seen of them stretching are from folks who pushed their luck.

True but HRA uses another alloy to strengthen their brass. I would rather have a barrel to frame pairing with the stronger frame.

No, Henry is using bronze, versus Uberti's brass. Both are alloys.

 

[DPris]

No, actually Henry's formulation is not bronze.
If I had the energy, I'd dig up that email. It was from one of the plant managers, and it surprised me.
It has a higher ratio of other material elements than either brass or bronze.

Regardless, it IS a harder material than Uberti's brass alloy.
Denis

 

[Crawdad1]

HRA is using another alloy to make their frames stronger or as strong as plain steel. Uberti is not. They are using brass, which is not stronger than plain steel.

"If that is an accurate analysis, and I have no reason to doubt it, then it is a most unfortunate choice of brass alloy on the part of the Italian Gunmakers, and it explains a LOT. An alloy with even a small amount of tin or even better, phosphorous, produces an alloy that is stronger, harder, easy to machine, and with a much greater resistance to stretching, the bane of all Brass Frame Colts.

This is probably why why the evil "fake Henry" can claim a much stronger frame using a magic alloy, most likely a variation of the phosphor bronzes which can command a tensile strength of as much as 95,000 psi, greatly exceeding the tensile strength of many plain steels (on the order of 50,000 psi and up )"

That brass, incidentally, has the same tensile strength as steel according to Anthony Imperato, and if you’re concerned about its longevity or overall strength with hotter .44-40 loads, he also says the rifle’s perfectly safe with any .44-40 load that meets SAAMI specifications, and that you can “rest assured this gun will withstand lifetimes of extensive shooting."

Yet we do not know for certain what HRA is adding to their brass alloy to make it that strong. Mainly because they won't tell us. Uberti is using brass. However all things considered I would rather have the stronger frame.

 

[CraigC]

You had chemistry in first grade? Don't be quite so self righteous if I have to explain what an alloy is.

I don't pay much attention to marketing so repeating what Imperato said in an email is useless information. Does no good to say that "brass is stronger than steel" if we don't know the properties of either. There are cheap guns made of very low grade mild steel like 12L14 and that may very well be what he's referencing. Big difference between that and the Carpenter Custom 465 or 17-4 precipitation hardened stainless steels used in other guns.

I really don't care one way or another if it's brass, bronze or clay. I have no doubt that the Henry alloy is stronger and assume it's the same alloy used in the Big Boy, which I heard was bronze. That is not the point. The point here is what does that strength net the consumer and is it worth paying another $500 for? Based on what I've seen from Henry, it is not. I have seen nothing from them that warrants a $500 premium over any Uberti, regardless of what alloy is used in their construction. IMHO, Uberti could teach Henry a thing or two about fit and finish. If I was that worried about wearing out a brass frame Uberti, I would've stuck with 1873's instead of getting an 1866.

So are you going to get one and if so, which one and why?

 

[DPris]

Craig, not to be argumentative, but I've discussed the material with the Wisconsin plant manager & it is the same as used in the Big Boys, but it's not really bronze.
I was surprised at the formulation, it's much less brass & much more "other" alloy than I expected.

Regardless of exact composition, it IS a strong material & fully up to withstanding heavy use of STANDARD pressure ammunition.

After having had two Henry Originals here & having worked with & owned Uberti leverguns (including a 66), my money's on the Henrys as far as consistency of manufacture goes.
The Ubertis can be quite variable.

Customer service will go much smoother with the Henry operation than with Uberti channels, should it ever be needed.

Not trying to sell a Henry, just advising.
Denis

 

[Crawdad1]

No, but you don't need to explain anything as most people know exactly what brass is, an alloy of copper and zinc. You're the one that feels the need to explain what brass is, I figured, correctly, that most people knew that already.

And I'm trying to explain why I feel that the HRA Henry is a better rifle than the Uberti because of its stronger frame because the Uberti is brass. We don't know exactly what the HRA Henry frame is it could be brass with phosphorous added.

 

[Jimster]

I will throw in my opinion. I wanted to get an 1860 Henry because I love replica firearms from the old days, I’m a Civil War buff and the Uberti looked like the stock contour was closer to the original (I’ve since found photos of some originals that look like the HRA version so that point is now moot). I love reloading black powder cartridges (44 WCF in this case) so the strength of the receiver is negated. The weakness is in the toggle link system, not the frame. Uberti has been making these replicas for many years, HRA only a few years.
Buying an American made product is a very strong point for HRA and if I had the extra coin I would’ve purchased one but the composition of the brass colored receiver would not be the deciding factor in my personal choice. If Uberti used soft butter brass that stretched apart with use for their receivers I doubt they would’ve been successful. But they are.
Both makers produce awesome historical rifles but they do have some manufacturing differences.
I’m glad that so many people have an interest in this firearm. It truly was the very first assault rifle.

 

[CraigC]

Craig, not to be argumentative, but I've discussed the material with the Wisconsin plant manager & it is the same as used in the Big Boys, but it's not really bronze.
I was surprised at the formulation, it's much less brass & much more "other" alloy than I expected.

Regardless of exact composition, it IS a strong material & fully up to withstanding heavy use of STANDARD pressure ammunition.

After having had two Henry Originals here & having worked with & owned Uberti leverguns (including a 66), my money's on the Henrys as far as consistency of manufacture goes.
The Ubertis can be quite variable.

Customer service will go much smoother with the Henry operation than with Uberti channels, should it ever be needed.

Not trying to sell a Henry, just advising.
Denis

Like I said, regardless of what it is, I don't doubt that it's stronger. The receiver could be made of the strongest steel available and it's still not a selling point because the frame is not the weakest link. As far as why I'd choose a Uberti (again) over a Henry, it has nothing to do with the materials used. As many already know, I don't have a positive opinion of their fit & finish. Particularly in this case, the sloppy way they polish their octagon barrels, taking little care in keep the edges between the flats crisp. It might be different if their prices were comparable but the Henry is a substantial premium over Uberti, which is already a very expensive rifle for something with very limited utility.

No, but you don't need to explain anything as most people know exactly what brass is, an alloy of copper and zinc. You're the one that feels the need to explain what brass is, I figured, correctly, that most people knew that already.

And I'm trying to explain why I feel that the HRA Henry is a better rifle than the Uberti because of its stronger frame because the Uberti is brass. We don't know exactly what the HRA Henry frame is it could be brass with phosphorous added.

No, I'm explaining what the term alloy means because it's obvious by some posts that some don't know, including yours. Why keep harping on it?

All I'm saying is that the strength of the frame is not an issue. The frame is not the weakest link in these guns. It's literally, the toggle link.

Again, are you going to buy one? Are you going to put 100,000rds through it to find out if the stronger frame is a factor? Or will you do like most folks and just put a few hundred through it, if any at all?

 

[Crawdad1]

I'm going to wait and see if HRA comes out with an iron framed Henry in 45 LC.

Right now all they have is 44-40 in their iron framed Henry, but there are some rumors that they are. If they do I'll wait and see if I go with the brass or iron framed Henry. By then there should be a lot more info, there's a lot currently but down the road some there should be more, comparing these two from Uberti and HRA.