"Original" Garand?

[Onmilo]

My personal unbiased opinion is that any M1 Garands that came ashore on 6 June 1944 and are still in all correct, as issued, condition are still there on that beach, buried in the sands.

I have handled and examined a number of "all correct" "all original" World War Two Garands and except for a couple that came along with impeccable provinance and paperwork to back up the claim, every one of the others I would consider dubious.

M1 Garand rifles were designed to be rebuilt, many times over before wear cause the rifle to no longer meet specification.
Most all of them received this treatment more than once.

I am more interested in a rifle that is honestly advertised as "part corrected to original configuration" than one that is being advertised as "all correct and all original."

 

[Horsemany]

I suppose that is the one glaring difference in Garand collecting. The original specimens are a very low percentage of guns available. Since the number of originals is so low, most collectors disregard them as an option and focus on the mixed part guns. That is what makes them immune from the other rules of collecting. Most other guns its easy to turn your nose up at a non-original piece and wait for the right one. With Garands you'd be waiting a long time and paying a ton of money for an original. Make sense?

 

[TexasRifleman]

That is what makes them immune from the other rules of collecting. Most other guns its easy to turn your nose up at a non-original piece and wait for the right one. With Garands you'd be waiting a long time and paying a ton of money for an original. Make sense?

I'd be willing to bet that an original German "matching" WWII Mauser is as rare as it's Garand counterpart.

Also it's the way the mismatch is verified. There were no serial numbers on Garand parts to match up the way lots of bolt actions were.

It's obvious if you have a K31 mismatch for example since the serial numbers simply don't match.

It's not that easy to tell with the Garands so you have to know a lot more to prove one up as "good" and, unfortunately, a lot easier to make up a fake one that will pass review at first glance.

 

[Horsemany]

I'd be willing to bet that an original German "matching" WWII Mauser is as rare as it's Garand counterpart

.

Actually vet bringbacks are not all that uncommon among K98's. I've seen many that had all matching numbers, bolt, stock, floorplate. etc. etc.

Of the six million garands I've never seen one in person that was original.

It's not that easy to tell with the Garands so you have to know a lot more to prove one up as "good" and, unfortunately, a lot easier to make up a fake one that will pass review at first glance.

I think you've touched on one reason Garand collecting is so popular. It's so easy for someone to make their own correct grade in their garage. I'm all for guns that have provenance and were rearsenalled but how many Garands are out there pieced together by some amateur to make a buck? And as you've pointed out nobody can prove it because they're not numbered.

 

[30Cal]

Actually vet bringbacks are not all that uncommon among K98's. I've seen many that had all matching numbers, bolt, stock, floorplate. etc. etc.

Of the six million garands I've never seen one in person that was original.

How many of the six million garands have you seen? Two? Sure there's a lot of mixmaster's out there, but if you wave $1400+ dollars around, you'll find an original M1. Look down in the for sale section--there's one in there (way overpriced though).

It's almost always very easy to spot a restoration. Most people don't go through the trouble of making it match in finish and color--they're happy just to find something with the right number but don't care if it looks right or not. Sort of like buying a vintage car with a hood that's got Bondo and primer on it--not exactly subtle or tough to spot.

The CMP clearly advertises what you're getting with each grade. They aren't making up war stories and passing off a mixmaster as factory original. If anything, it's the other way around.


If you want an original M1, either get a correct grade directly from the CMP or get one with CMP papers and a hefty price markup from a private party. Third option would be to buy all the M1 books, study up, become and expert and go out swimming with the sharks. Scott Duff used to have a lot of original rifles--now he seems to be dealing in a lot of "restorations."

 

[HorseSoldier]

So I guess what I'm asking is, are there any places outside of CMP where I can look for nice WWII or Korean War era ORIGINAL correct grade Garands?

The CMP South Store in Anniston, AL, will be happy to sell you not just one, but two completely period correct, never issued M1 Garands.

The only catch is that they want $25,000 for the pair, if I remember the price correctly last time I was in there.

 

[Horsemany]

How many of the six million garands have you seen? Two?

I said "in person" (it's all in the details). Anyone can find one online. By comparison every gun show I'm at will have a couple vet bringback Mausers. I have not yet seen a Garand at any of the shows that are all original. I assume there are more Garands in this country than German mausers. I am saying an original Garand is far rarer than an original K98 IMO. By original I mean all the parts it came out of the factory with, not a correct parts gun.

 

[TexasRifleman]

By comparison every gun show I'm at will have a couple vet bringback Mausers.

And you know enough about them to verify they are authentic?

How do you verify the stock on a German Mauser is the original?

I suspect there are not as many of these "original" German Mausers as you think.

Provenance is hard to come by, on ANY World War II weapon and that's what drives the value up.

 

[Horsemany]

It's not too hard to see if the numbers on parts match. Parts are numbered to the gun. How do you know how much or little I know about Mausers? Are you telling me you think there is an even percentage of original Garands as there are original K98's? I thought we had established the likelyhood of Garands ending up original? By comparison when a G.I. picked up a K98 on the battlefield and brought one home, it would have a good chance of being exactly the way it was built. Is that incorrect in your opinion?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I am telling you it's quite easy to stamp anything you want on a Mauser stock, I'm not questioning your knowledge of the Mausers, but don't think I don't have any either.

It is very easy to stamp wood stocks and it's done regularly.

Certainly the worst offender was Mitchells but they are hardly the only ones.

I'm saying that just because some guy at a gun show has "original" Mausers on his table does not mean that they are, nor that there are more GENUINE original Mausers than Garands.

You simply cannot state that and have any way at all of knowing that it's true.


As for bringbacks, how do you know it's a bringback, because some guy at a gun show table tells you so?

No, you prove it with provenance. Photos of the soldier holding the rifle, affidavits from the soldier stating that was the rifle, the bringback paperwork if any etc.

You simply cannot tell by looking at a Mauser that it is a true original any more than you can tell by looking at a Garand that it is a true original. You have to do some research.

Certainly we know for a fact that there are lots fewer original Garands than mixmasters but the same can be said about Mausers because without any kind of provenance you are not going to be able to prove it's truly the real deal to the point where you can command top dollar. Even then it's possible that the Mauser had been in a depot at some kind or another and the stock is not what came with it from the factory or that it was refinished.

A documented bringback from Battle of the Bulge for example, with paperwork, is worth FAR more than an unissued Mauser original even if the rife from the Ardennes is not a numbers matching weapon.

Collectors of both these rifles have decided that it's perfectly fine to not have all that paperwork to prove it, it simply makes the value a little less. And they have decided that hisorical significance can outweigh parts continuity in many cases.

 

[Horsemany]

As for bringbacks, how do you know it's a bringback, because some guy at a gun show table tells you so?

You can verify nearly every part because they're stamped with the serial number. Instead of part numbers they stamped the serial no. on the major parts. That doesn't take documentation to prove, just eyeballs. Yes there are ways to counterfiet anything, but as you pointed out earlier it's very easy and even common practice to swap out parts with Garands. In fact some people earn a living doing this with Garands.

I do agree with you that the historical significance of both guns trumps originality of the parts to most collectors.

 

[theoldgringo]

The subject of this thread has been steered to an originality bias which has nothing to do with PhilA's question. If CMP (as good as they are) is going to advertise a Garand as "H&R correct" then IMHO it should have an H&R barrel. If they were advertising the rifle as period correct, maybe a Springfield barrel
is acceptable, but I personally wouldn't order a rifle like that...........In fact since reading this thread, I will be calling CMP and cancelling my order for an "H&R correct" (which would have shipped in another week, or so) and changing it to a Springfield SG. Reason being, even if I get a rifle with an H&R barrel, in what kind of condition will it be, if they are now substituting Springfield barrels..........Regarding originality: I know for a fact that when military armories cleaned collective groups of Garands the small parts all went into a community barrel and the parts went back into the guns in whatever order they came out. And no, TexasRifleman, this doesn't diminish my love of and respect for this rifle. Original, however means original, not partly, not almost. I consider anyone who possesses one that is truly factory original to be very lucky, indeed, but without a factory, numbered parts manifest, specific to a given rifle, how would you know?

 

[30Cal]

By comparison every gun show I'm at will have a couple vet bringback Mausers. I have not yet seen a Garand at any of the shows that are all original.

I guess I follow you there. High-end collector M1's aren't found at the shows. In fact, 99% of the "high end" M1's I've seen at shows have been frauds. The good ones are being sold within the "inner circles."

Mausers are quite a few years behind M1's in collector status.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If CMP (as good as they are) is going to advertise a Garand as "H&R correct" then IMHO it should have an H&R barrel. If they were advertising the rifle as period correct, maybe a Springfield barrel

You need to read it again. Nowhere does CMP claim that an H&R correct will have an H&R barrel. They claim that the H&R receiver will be correctly put together for the date of manufacture.

If you've been deceived you did it to yourself.

Again, from the CMP website:

Correct Grade Rifles are similar to the Service Grade (above), but will show less wear and use. Correct Grade rifles will have all correct parts for the date of manufacture with 80% or better overall original metal finish. The stock and handguards will be of walnut and correct for the rifle but will have some dings, dents, scratches and marring of the wood finish. Stocks will have the appropriate original inspector's cartouche. The rifle bore will be very good with no significant defects and with a throat erosion of less than 4 and a muzzle wear of 2 or less.

That does NOT mean that all the parts will be H&R.

Read this description from CMP, COLLECTOR GRADE....

Collector Grade Rifles have 95% or better overall original metal finish. Rifle bores are excellent with throat erosion under 3 and muzzle wear of 2 or less. Collector Grade rifles have all original parts as they came from the manufacturer.

Big difference. Big difference in price too, and there are no Collector Grades for sale at the moment.

I consider anyone who possesses one that is truly factory original to be very lucky, indeed, but without a factory, numbered parts manifest, specific to a given rifle, how would you know?

Well Scott Duff has sold some upwards of $10,000 in the past. I'm going to assume he knows a way to get to that valuation, he's the top Garand guy around pretty much. I'm not even going to pretend to know as much as he does about Garands but he's appraised rifles in that price range, there has to be some way to get there.

A friend of mine in Pennsylvania paid Scott a little over $5000 for a Garand that to me looks like a Service Grade, it's beat to hell and the finish isn't good.
I don't know WHY but I know he's got an appraisal for that amount. I'm not into that side of the Garand world but I know it's out there so there must be ways of proving up these kinds of rifles.

 

[PhilA]

As always, you guys are an absolute WEALTH of information. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Seeing as how I don't have $5-10,000 to spend one one, I'll probably go Service Grade CMP.

Is that what you guys would recommend instead of Correct Grade if I want a better chance of getting a decent-looking shooter with enough barrel life left to make it worth my while?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I just got a Correct grade and it's in very nice shape. I am quite happy with it.

It's all H&R except for a SA barrel. the wood is in really nice shape.

Cartouche is clean and readable, well in real life, my camera won't focus up close for some reason......

Metal finish is great. I am sure it will shoot wonderfully as soon as the mud at the range is dry.
It's not a museum piece so I'll be shooting the heck out of it.