Outperforming your sights

[Cryogaijin]

OK, question here. I see a ton of people bragging about their accuracy with various rifle/sight combos.

Now I'll grant that any quality rifle has the potential to outperform its shooter, so lets just remove that from the discussion. What I am curious about is if there are techniques for a marksman to outperform their sights?

I'm a civvie that got into marksmanship through hunting. As such, I use high quality hunting scopes with whisker thin crosshairs. (Zeiss Conquest is my preferred brand ATM)

Coming from that background I tend to get dubious when I hear about people shooting 1moa with a 4moa red-dot sight. What are they doing, aiming right at the apex of the dot? Such sights don't seem condusive to great accuracy.

Also, how much area do the irons on an ar-15/m-16/m4 occlude?

 

[scythefwd]

the "irons" on the AR series are aperture sights. They require a consistant sight picture, but they can be VERY accurate. It's up to the shooter to meet that. The front post is centered in the ring of the rear aperture. The post only covers, depending if you are using a 6 o'clock hold or center hold (my preferred) method up to half of the target, period. If you are using a 6 o'clock hold, you put the curvature of the bull sitting on top of the sight post and centered. If you are using center hold, you put the front sight post half way up the target and center the target on the post (use whitespace to determine exact center, either the post will be wider or narrower than the target.... very rarely are they the exact same width). You can shoot sub moa easily with irons as long as you know what the sight picture is supposed to look like and you are capable of that kind of shooting...I'm not that capable.

A 4moa dot covers 4 moa.... If your target is 8 " and you're shooting at 100y, place the dot exactly centered. If you are perfect every time, you can shoot one hole groups. Sights aren't about seeing anything but the sight picture so to speak. Those cross hairs just tell you where you are pionting. As long as the sight picture is consistent, those corss hairs can be as thick as you want them to be and the POI is still the same. You just see more cross hair and less animal.

My aperture sights use a globe up front. At 100y, there is a ring of white surrounding a standard 8" bullseye target. I keep the ring even all the way around and I can keep the shots in the 10 or x rings... well the rifle can... I've seen it do it. I still need some work.

 

[tarosean]

I see a ton of people bragging about their accuracy with various rifle/sight combos.

Do you believe every fishing story or hunting story you hear??? Dont mean to be facetious. However, its only exacerbated by the author being some nameless, faceless person hooked up to the Internet. You dont know if they are 10 or 90, man, woman or child. Just a funny name that claims to be the best.

 

[Cryogaijin]

Very interesting, Scythefwd

 

[JohnBT]

"aiming right at the apex of the dot?"

Yes. I got good at using the tip of the sight because the Marlin Mountie my uncle gave me in '63 has a bead on the front sight that covers small targets.

John

 

[scythefwd]

crayo - just put it this way, as long as you are getting the exact same (and I mean exact) sight picture, your barrel is pointing in the same place... groups are good. If you clamp your rifle in a rest, with the cross hairs on the bull and then move the cross hairs to a different spot, the rifle will still point to the same place (notice I didn't say re-aim the rifle). Sights are to help visually. If you keep things visually identical, then you are aiming at the same spot every time.

The 1000 yards shooter using garands can't see the bull, but they can hit it due to correct sight picture and consistant sight picture. The front post more than covers up the x ring at that distance (x is 10", 10 is 20" if I remember right... never actually shot it)

 

[bhk]

Traditional target rifle shooters using double aperture sights can shoot amazingly small groups that rival those of scopes. The front aperture is sized to be just a tad larger that the bulleye being aimed at. It is all about everything being centered, and it is easy to center 'round stuff.' Centering a red dot in a bullseye that appears larger than the dot is pretty much the same. The quality of the red dot scope will make a difference because the red dot should be well defined, not 'fuzzy' or 'out of round' as they can be on some cheap red dots.

 

[scythefwd]

BHK just described my target sights I was talking about earlier in a much easier way to understand (about keeping the ring even).

 

[Slamfire]

Now I'll grant that any quality rifle has the potential to outperform its shooter, so lets just remove that from the discussion. What I am curious about is if there are techniques for a marksman to outperform their sights?

The aiming black to a 600 yard MR31 target is a 36 diameter circle. At 600 yards it looks like a pin hole. The ten ring is 12 inches in diameter. High Master shooters regularly shoot keep 17, 18, 19, or even all 20 shots inside the ten ring with irons. And that includes match AR's.

You cannot see the ten inch circle at 600 yards, without a scope most people cannot clearly see the 6" scoring disc. In a typical mirage the image is very soupy.

The good shooters have a very consistent sight picture, aiming point, stock position, a very consistent prone position, they always align on the sights the exact same way, and their trigger pull is always the same.

 

[Smokey in PHX]

A highly skilled shooter can have amazing groups with aperture sights. Most people do not know how to correctly use them. To me they add to the challenge in hunting. But as I get older I find myself going more often to scopes.

You guys did a good job explaining the use of aperture sights.

 

[Skribs]

I remember reading somewhere, I don't know where, on which aimpoint to get, and the suggestion was to go with the 4 MOA dot, because at CQB range it doesn't matter, and at 500 yards you'll be holding up anyway and shooting under the sight.

Other red dots, like Trijicon Reflex, can come in the form of a triangle instead of a circle, so even though it's a 12 MOA triangle, you line up the target with the point, and you can still see it.

Then again, that's just what I've read.

 

[CraigC]

Coming from that background I tend to get dubious when I hear about people shooting 1moa with a 4moa red-dot sight. What are they doing, aiming right at the apex of the dot? Such sights don't seem condusive to great accuracy.

You don't need to be able to aim at or even see a 1" target to shoot a 1" group. This is a common misconception. You need to match your target to your sights and the range you're shooting and it's entirely possible to shoot MOA with buckhorns.

 

[rskent]

“Also, how much area do the irons on an ar-15/m-16/m4 occlude?”

For me – exactly half. I use a center mass hold. A lot of us guys with crappy eyes do.

For a lot of people – nothing. With a normal six o’clock hold the front sight is under the target

It always amazes me how accurate a good set of match A2 sights can be with the right person behind them.

Sadly, not me.

 

[Cryogaijin]

I consider myself well informed. Thanks peeps.

 

[oldfool]

yeah, what everybody said
You cannot "outperform" the sights, but you can learn how to use the sight picture and throw really tight groups at really small targets with any sights used; consistency is everything.

Shooters are like fishermen, we like to blame the hardware, or the wind, or the weather or whatever, but most guns are capable of better accuracy than most of the people who shoot them.
(or in my case, all guns are capable of better !)

 

[tominct]

You don't need to be able to aim at or even see a 1" target to shoot a 1" group. This is a common misconception. You need to match your target to your sights and the range you're shooting and it's entirely possible to shoot MOA with buckhorns.

When I was shooting the DCM High Power matches, I filed my A-2 front sight post down so it would subtend the diameter of the bull. The "pumpkin on a post" with a 6:00 hold. Shooting from prone would usually get me in the 9-ring and better, with probably 10 out of 20 in the X-ring. (I never quite made Expert, I was averaging about 443 in a 500-point aggregate match).

I'd go recreational shooting with some buddies who only shot with scopes, and I'd often tape a dime in the X-ring and ask them how many shots they thought it would take me to hit it. Since there was no way to see the dime itself at 100 yards, they were amazed that I ever hit it. Usually in the first 3 shots. Good times!

The guys who were Masters and High Masters were absolutely incredible. They'd get frustrated when they were in the 10_ring, let alone the 9.