P53 Enfield, Armi Sport or Euroarms?

[P99guy]

Hi all, Im a life long shooter of modern firearms and have decided to finally get into black power. I have narrowed it down to either of two types of Replica Enfield rifled musket...and the two most popular companies that build both models. So I need input as to which rout to take.

Ok here is the choices: P53 3 band Enfield or a P58 2 band Naval Enfield.

and who is the better builder...Armi Sport or Euroarms?

 

[confed sailor]

well,

mechanically they are the same,

i have an armi-sport, it comes with no finish on the stock. so that allows you to decide what to do with it

i personally have a 3 bander, and if you want to get into civil war reenacting get that one, the 2 bander is lighter though

 

[P99guy]

Well I found a local small shop that caters to the reenactor groups
and put 1/2 down on a Armi Sport 3 band Enfield and Bayonet...after looking at one in person, it seemed well built (and right purdy)...now I just have to set about buying all the stuff that goes with it...cleaning kit, nipple protector w/ chain, bullet puller.....powder,caps,balls, lube and list goes on .

 

[confed sailor]

regtqm.com

go to their website, they sell tools and other implements at about the most reasonable price around,

and let me know how it shoots, im still working on an accurate load in mine :banghead:

oh and finish the stock before it gets wet, i made that mistake once, durned stock swoll so bad i couldnt hardly get it apart to clean it, i used 3 in 1 oil out of cheapness, it darkens the stock slightly and gives a nice natural finish

 

[P99guy]

I ordered from

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catalog.htm

I got the "complete" cleaning kit, which is rather complete and kept me from buying a lot of stuff separate
and I got the "the civil war reenactors black powder guide"- it seemed like a good book to have. and the square ended receiver washers to replace the round ended ones. Did you have yours "Defarbed"?

I have yet to figure out what powder handling system to go with....whether to make paper cartridges, or buy the plastic speed loader tubes to measue a charge and have ready(im not reenacting ..it just for use at the range or plinking) ...what do you use at the range and such, Confed?
as the thought of trying to pour /measure loose powder on a windy day just dont seem that fun without a method to deal with it.

 

[confed sailor]

HOLY MOLY they want 470 for it?! i paid 395 for mine and that was on sep 11 2002. (regtqm.com has em for 445, still too damn much! )


well i use a musket powder flask with a 60 grain spout, cover opening, invert, work lever, dispenses a 60 grains volumetic load, so either pyrodex or bp will work in it well worth the 20 bucks, i also have an adjustable powder measure 0-120gr, but i dont use it that much,

dont bother with paper cartridges, unless you must have rapid fire. get a small bag for your belt and stow your bullets in it, load from the flask (i have it on a shoulder strap) also a military style capbox would be useful. it holds the caps securely in the field, yet not out of reach.

do mind your sights, they might be dramatically off, im looking to make a period style scope and mount

mostly i shoot (and please dont laugh) 00 buck, as i have not started casting yet. and 15 pellets over 120 grns (two flask measures) with cotton or paper wads makes about a 2 foot group at 50 yards, i have a HD load set up on my book shelf with ready shot powder wads and primer. may god have mercy on a prowler, as i will not

as of this P.I.T. i load it up for my friends as a recoil teacher and bp familarization tool. but as my base allows bp rifles for hunting (no centrefire) i intend as this summer progresses to get some proper minnies and work up accurate loads.

as for defarbing, im not a member of that hardcore a group, the 27th sc is glad to have an extra rifle on the field, washer shape be dammed!

 

[P99guy]

well a definate to purchase on a good 60gr flask. One thing of note between the two most common P53 enfields ... Armi sport is a 1 in 48 twist /Euroarms is a 1 in 78!
I would think the euroarms would be better with patched round ball and the Armi with Mini'e . but the prices on minie' ball isnt cheap I had noticed.
and yes the rifles have gone up...my P53 was 445.00 + tax

 

[4v50 Gary]

Hey Confed Sailor - Do you know the history of the 27 SC? It was formed from the Charleston Battalion (including the Washington Light Infantry, a group that is still around today) and Maj. Joseph Abney's Sharpshooters. It was part of Hagood's Brigade that immortalized itself at Weldon Railroad. I saw the monument there to Hagood & his men. What Hagood did there in shooting that Yankee officer and retrieving his colors is the stuff that should be in the movies.

P99 - Don't fret over the price. I paid more for a used English Made Parker Hale Enfield. At least mine came with a PH mold (and darn if it doesn't cast nice minie balls). I couldn't afford to shoot otherwise.

 

[major]

Don't load directly out of a flask.

P99Guy
First loading directly from a flask is dangerous. If you have a cook-off while loading, the entire flask could go BOOM! I suggest you use loading tubes or pre-measure the charge from the flask into a separate container and then pour it down the barrel. In the N-SSA we use cap plugs as loading tubes. A cap plug is a small plastic tube that is closed off on one end. We put a charge of powder in it and then stick a mini ball nose down into the tube just enough so the main part of the bullet is still showing. Then put lube on the part of the bullet that is sticking out of the tube.
As far as a powder charge is concerned I can shoot quarter size groups at 50 yards with only 41 grains of 3F and with the small recoil I can shoot all day and not have a black and blue shoulder. You will have to experiment with different loads to find the one your gun likes the best. It should be between 38 to 48 grains of black powder.
Bullet size is another factor to consider. Most Armi-sport muskets are a true .58 caliber. Your mini ball should be .001 to .002 smaller then the bore so you will probably need a .578 mini ball. You accomplish this by molding a mini ball in a .580 size and then using a sizer to reduce it to a .578. If you want to get serious about musket shooting then you might want to stop by the N-SSA board and look around and maybe even join a team. Belonging to a team gets you the ability to have several experienced shooters help you with getting your musket to shoot to it’s full potential. The address is: http://www.n-ssa.org/bb/index.php I hope this helps.

 

[confed sailor]

i do gary, in fact while i was a citadel cadet i worked with the WLI many times. also the cadets drilled the local charleston volunteer units including the forerunners of the 27th.

and i agree maj, pouring straight from the flask makes a 1 lb grenade, however dispensing a load, and closing the gate, then pouring the load in is perfectly fine. with the brass gate in the way the chances of a flashover are next to nil. ive never seen an accident like that occur, nor has anyone ever seen one happen, WHEN THE PROCEDURE IS FOLLOWED. i have seen a fellow try to straight pour and have his flask act like a rocket, i suppose he was lucky.
i do get a kick out of you NSSAers, i went to Ft. Shenandoa (sp?) two summers back, made a killing selling gray plastic cadet raincoats to yall.
(and herein lies the fundamental differences between NSSAers and reenactors) they drop thousands on a gun, we drop thousands on all the uniforms, accounterments, tents, and all the other bits of military minutae; the rifle to us is nothing more than a blank load projector

and if you wanna have some REAL fun, load it up with no. 9's and try to shoot skeet.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Confed Sailor - one of yours, Lt. James Ross, of the WLI, was one of the last men to leave Battery Wagner before the Yankees captured it. Ross poured powder from a Whitworth cartridge into a 10 inch Colombiad in an attempt to provide priming powder to explode the gun. Like the fuse before it, it failed. I believe Ross died at Weldon Railroad.

 

[major]

Still a very bad idea

confed sailor
I have to strongly disagree with you on using a flask to charge a musket. The brass closure on the flask is not sufficient to prevent a spark from entering a flask if it is on the end of a muzzle when it goes off. If I was on the line with you and you did this I would get as far away from you as I could because you are not only putting yourself at risk but everyone around you.

 

[confed sailor]

well major, thats your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

 

[P99guy]

I knew about the possibility of a smouldering ember from the last shot, and also knew that decapping the nipple lets in air that can make the likelyhood
even better for this to happen....but that being said I have gone to a system of plastic test tubes with stoppers to put premeasured powder loads in for range use(they serve the same basic need as tear open paper cartidges) and are long enough that you wont get burned too badly if there is an active ember...I dont know where they guy that im buying them from got them, but he has used them for black powder shooting for years(im getting 25)
I am also going to try the triple seven black powder substitute talked about on this board. I get conflicting information on its use though...from reduce the load by 15%from the same BP load, to just use the same by volume as the normal BP load(as its not the same weight as BP) and go on your merry way. I realize it does have more velocity for the same volume of BP....but what of the amount of PSI/chamber pressure change? And yes I have ordered the Hodgdon load manual and will have it in a few days( along with the funnel spout they sell to screw on thier powder containers)

lol, i bought a tube and found out bore butter smells like something grandma would make you rub on your chest when you had the sniffles

 

[4v50 Gary]

I wouldn't load from a flask either. You should be rolling your own cartridges but I use a powder measure to introduce the powder (stored in a horn) down my Civil War type guns.

 

[P99guy]

Well I got to bring 'er home today 1853 Pattern Enfield (Armi Sport)
Was lucky and got one with a good trigger, which is a good start.

here it is compared to a WW2 No4 Enfield, and the last Enfield design, the SA80/L85A1

 

[major]

Black powder shooting is loads of fun

P99guy
Congratulation on your new musket, I know you will have loads of fun shooting it. I don’t know if it maters to you or not but the bayonet you have pictured looks like one for a Springfield musket.

 

[confed sailor]

very nice

all you need now is a no 1 enfield, a martini-henry, and a brown bess and you will have pretty much the whole starting line up for the RA.