I am a competitive shooter, i shoot the M1A during service rifle matches and i want to get into the pistol realm too. I know many of the basics carry over, but i am not so great at shooting pistols. I would like to get my SAMI qualifications but to do that i have to qualify with the pistol (more motivation). I am looking at getting a nice 1911, when i got my M1A, i bought a supermatch to start with. I am glad i made that decision, as i become a better shot, the gun becomes more forgiving, i know the gun will shoot X's all day if there is anything but an X it is my fault. I think i want to follow that same mentality with the handgun realm too. I am looking at getting a Les Baer, what do you guys think? Is that to much to start with? My wife OK'd the 1700 for the Les Baer and i dont think i will get her to OK a starter gun then a nice one.
Pistol shooting
- Thread starter mficken
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dfugate
Member
I am in the same boat; I went with a stock 1911AI Model Mil Spec, not the bottom of the line GI model. There is a difference. I went to Perry, going thru Small Arms Firing School. Getting all the information I needed, I purchased a Kart EZ-fit barrel, 170 and getting a trigger job, with adj. champion rear sights, front site replaced with the barrel installed for 335. So I have about 1100 the gun, this type of configuration will last you a long time, also it will save you enough money to purchase a Ruger Mark III to practice with, cheaper. If you are planning to shoot CMP Service pistol matches, this is configuration you can use, make sure to get into the regs to ensure you are in compliance, they are picky with the pistols.
skinewmexico
Member
I don't know that I'd have to agree that a Les Baer is necessary. I think you can get several Springfields and STIs that will do the same job for a lot less money.
cdrt
Member
If we're talking NRA Conventional Pistol (Bullseye), your first pistol should be a more than adequate .22, so you can get the basics down. Ruger and High Standard both make pistols that will work quite well for the beginning Bullseye shooter. If you want something more custom, you can get a 1911 frame and a Marvel .22 conversion unit.
Of course, you'll need a .45 autoloader for the Centerfire and .45 matches. A good choice is a basic pistol like the Springfield 1911A1 that you can turn in to a hardball gun for both regular NRA matches and CMP EIC matches.
I have always believed it is better to start out with iron sights and then move to a red dot after you get the basics down.
A good book on pistol shooting is published by the Army Mks Unit and I believe can be purchased through the CMP.
Yes, Les Baer makes a good pistol, but so do other local pistolsmiths, like Buddy Chapman, here in Texas. He built my hardball gun. I shot a 268 NMC with it the other day at the Dallas match.
We have one shooter who made Master shooting a Ruger 22/45 (iron sights) and his hardball gun in the CF and .45 matches. He legged out last year for his Distinguished medal. He started shooting Bullseye in 2004 and is still using those two guns for most of his matches.
The rules for CMP EIC matches can be downloaded from their website at www.odcmp.com. The NRA has the Conventional Pistol rule book at their website in pdf format too.
Of course, you'll need a .45 autoloader for the Centerfire and .45 matches. A good choice is a basic pistol like the Springfield 1911A1 that you can turn in to a hardball gun for both regular NRA matches and CMP EIC matches.
I have always believed it is better to start out with iron sights and then move to a red dot after you get the basics down.
A good book on pistol shooting is published by the Army Mks Unit and I believe can be purchased through the CMP.
Yes, Les Baer makes a good pistol, but so do other local pistolsmiths, like Buddy Chapman, here in Texas. He built my hardball gun. I shot a 268 NMC with it the other day at the Dallas match.
We have one shooter who made Master shooting a Ruger 22/45 (iron sights) and his hardball gun in the CF and .45 matches. He legged out last year for his Distinguished medal. He started shooting Bullseye in 2004 and is still using those two guns for most of his matches.
The rules for CMP EIC matches can be downloaded from their website at www.odcmp.com. The NRA has the Conventional Pistol rule book at their website in pdf format too.
Sunray
Member
"...am not so great at shooting pistols..." Hi. Shooting a handgun well is nothing like shooting a rifle. It requires upper body tone. As daft as that sounds. You're holding about 2 pounds out on the end or your arm. Even with a two hand grip, you need to be able to hold it up. It's kind of like the difference between a standard transmission and an automatic. Same basics(sight picture, breathing and trigger control), but different. You have to like doing it too. There is a learning curve. Mostly having to do with standing on your hind legs and shooting, that's different from off-hand rifle shooting.
The pistol must fit your hand properly too. That is the absolutely most important thing with any handgun. If you can't easily reach the trigger, you won't be able to shoot well. Too small can be fixed with a change of grips. Too big might be, but not always. Most 1911 style pistols will fit most people though. Forget the $1700 pistols and go to your local gun shop and try a few .45's on for size first.
As with a rifle, good sights matter. Pistol sights need to be highly visible. You get to choose between adjustable and fixed. Get the adjustables. Sighting in(yep) fixed sights while not completely impossible, is a pain the your nether regions. Rear sight pushers(windage) are expensive. Moreso than an M1A front sight tool.
Ammo matters with a pistol, just as it does with a rifle. If you're not reloading .45 ACP, you'll have to try a box of as many brands as you can...yep, just like a rifle. .45's use a taper crimp only. Just doing that can fix a lot of feeding issues.
Try and find a Colt Series 70 Government. Have or do a trigger job and have the feed ramp chamfered and put high visibilty sights on it. A Springfield Trophy Match or a 'Loaded' will do though.
The pistol must fit your hand properly too. That is the absolutely most important thing with any handgun. If you can't easily reach the trigger, you won't be able to shoot well. Too small can be fixed with a change of grips. Too big might be, but not always. Most 1911 style pistols will fit most people though. Forget the $1700 pistols and go to your local gun shop and try a few .45's on for size first.
As with a rifle, good sights matter. Pistol sights need to be highly visible. You get to choose between adjustable and fixed. Get the adjustables. Sighting in(yep) fixed sights while not completely impossible, is a pain the your nether regions. Rear sight pushers(windage) are expensive. Moreso than an M1A front sight tool.
Ammo matters with a pistol, just as it does with a rifle. If you're not reloading .45 ACP, you'll have to try a box of as many brands as you can...yep, just like a rifle. .45's use a taper crimp only. Just doing that can fix a lot of feeding issues.
Try and find a Colt Series 70 Government. Have or do a trigger job and have the feed ramp chamfered and put high visibilty sights on it. A Springfield Trophy Match or a 'Loaded' will do though.
Thanks for the replies! It is handy to be able to get some information from someone who is not trying to sell me a gun -- ha ha. What is a hardball gun? If Looking at the Springfield Trophy Match's and the loaded's will i need to get a trigger job or anything? The tips about the grips make a lot of sense and i will pay close attention to that. And i think stepping down a notch in the price i will get the Lady to approve a 22/45 too!
cdrt
Member
A hardball gun is a 1911 used for Civilian Marksmanship Program Excellence in Competition matches (Leg matches) to get your Distinguished Pisol medal. "Hardball" refers to military issue ammo, 230 grain FMJ bullet, that is required when you shoot this match. It used to be that this ammo was issued at the match, but now you can use reloads, as long as they use the 230 grain bullet or you can use commercial ammo of the same type.
Conversely, some guys call wadcutter loads, softball, since they use a lead bullet and a softer or weaker charge of powder.
As mentioned in other posts, a Springfield Trophy Match is not legal for use in Leg matches. Most guys buy a 1911A1 and then add sights, etc. to use in Leg matches.
You can also shoot a Beretta M9 or M92 in the Leg match. As I mentioned before, rules for legal pistols can be found at the CMP website, www.odcmp.com. They have the current rule book in pdf format.
Conversely, some guys call wadcutter loads, softball, since they use a lead bullet and a softer or weaker charge of powder.
As mentioned in other posts, a Springfield Trophy Match is not legal for use in Leg matches. Most guys buy a 1911A1 and then add sights, etc. to use in Leg matches.
You can also shoot a Beretta M9 or M92 in the Leg match. As I mentioned before, rules for legal pistols can be found at the CMP website, www.odcmp.com. They have the current rule book in pdf format.
cdrt
Member
It's not only the beavertail grip safety, but the Commander type hammer. They've relaxed the rules a little, but those two are still illegal. You can now have different grip screws and front slide cuts.
There are also some restrictions on the types of grips; no metal grips for example, since they would change the weight of the pistol and they cannot be too thick. Pachmayr wrap-around grips used to be legal, but now are not. I just use plain Jane wood panels from National; nicely checkered and well made.
There are also some restrictions on the types of grips; no metal grips for example, since they would change the weight of the pistol and they cannot be too thick. Pachmayr wrap-around grips used to be legal, but now are not. I just use plain Jane wood panels from National; nicely checkered and well made.
cdrt
Member
Right. It's the skeletonized type. If you look at the original Colt Commander's, that's the type of hammer they used. Only the spur type govt. model hammer is allowed.
Glad to help. We've had at least one disqualified pistol at the last four or five Leg matches that I've been at. Mostly the beavertail grip safety and Commander hammer. Only one was DQ'd because of the trigger pull and we fixed that before the match started.
Glad to help. We've had at least one disqualified pistol at the last four or five Leg matches that I've been at. Mostly the beavertail grip safety and Commander hammer. Only one was DQ'd because of the trigger pull and we fixed that before the match started.
Mike OTDP
Member
I'd suggest going to Clark's Custom Guns and ordering one of their bullseye guns. There really aren't and out-of-the-box 1911s fit for precision work without tuning
lil ski
Member
Picking 1 all around gun is very hard to do. One that is good for indoor bullseye is probably not the same gun of choice for out door leg matches. Picking a 45 to start is going the hard way like cdrt said a 22 is the way to start. They are much more forgiving and a little easyer on the wallet to shoot. I shoot a Springfield Trophy Match for indoor bullseye. I still had to do a little work on it to shoot the way I wanted too, a triger job and different springs was all I had to do at first than I got it drilled and tapped for a frame mount scope rail. Clark Brothers has some nice stuff I never shot there 45s but they did my 22 and it shoots fantastic so I don't dout there 45s are top notch. Hope this helps. Good Luck!!
P.S.
You have a good wife for alowing this small transaction!
P.S.
You have a good wife for alowing this small transaction!
Here is the Rulebook for CMP Distinguished Pistol (grips, hammer, beavertail, etc.)
http://odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf
page ~20 is the start of the Table.
Get a Hardball gun (Rock River, Les Baer, David Sams Custom) and then, if you wish change out the Spring so you can shoot wadcutter loads. I agree with your starting idea; that is get the best one you can afford right out of the box, as this link demonstrates: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/cstomgun.htm Getting one that can hold the tightest group will allow you to work on technique and see the results of your improvements.
Not all "hardball" guns will shoot wadcutters. The good ones will, however, as they have had their feed ramps polished to allow feeding of the semi-wadcutter bullets.
cavman
http://odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf
page ~20 is the start of the Table.
Get a Hardball gun (Rock River, Les Baer, David Sams Custom) and then, if you wish change out the Spring so you can shoot wadcutter loads. I agree with your starting idea; that is get the best one you can afford right out of the box, as this link demonstrates: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/cstomgun.htm Getting one that can hold the tightest group will allow you to work on technique and see the results of your improvements.
Not all "hardball" guns will shoot wadcutters. The good ones will, however, as they have had their feed ramps polished to allow feeding of the semi-wadcutter bullets.
cavman
Please define wadcutter for me (new to the pistol realm).
It seems there is good banter to get an expensive one or to get a cheap one first. I am still undecided but i think i want to go somewhere in the middle, based on all the advice. I am really apprehensive of the custom guns, IMO custom=$$$$$$, but i have been wrong many many times.
It seems there is good banter to get an expensive one or to get a cheap one first. I am still undecided but i think i want to go somewhere in the middle, based on all the advice. I am really apprehensive of the custom guns, IMO custom=$$$$$$, but i have been wrong many many times.
cdrt
Member
Wadcutter referrs to Semi-wadcutter lead bullets (SWCs) that are used for softball loads. Most guys shoot either 200 grain or 185 grains SWCs from their Bulleye pistols. I use 200s for the long line and 185s for the short line, but am slowly transitioning to 200s for everything. And I have shot 165s in Indoor matches, but those are long gone and the company that was making them is out of business. Wadcutter type bullets cut a nice hole in the target and are easier to score than the typical Round Nose type bullet like the FMJ type that are used for Leg matches.
About custom guns:
I have a Clark .38 Special 1911 conversion that Clark Sr. built in 1982. The pistol was perfect and has always shot well.
I also had Clark build a Heavy Slide using a Colt Series 70 .45 ACP in 2003. I had bought it back in 1979 and it had very few rounds through it. That pistol went back twice for problems for Clark to fix; ejection and the grip safety did not work. In addition, I had a local gunsmith re-do the trigger job. Clark did not notice that the sear and hammer pins were not parallel, so the hooks on the hammer were only contacting the sear on one side. The local guy took about 8 hours of careful stoning to get them to meet correctly. Before the second trigger job, the pistol would sometimes let go at 3.5 pounds, sometimes at 4.0 pounds; really not great when you're shooting 50 yard slow fires.
I guess my point is, even custom guns have problems and spending a lot of money for an "starting out" .45 may not be the best way to go.
Buddy Chapman, who built my Hardball gun, charged me around $400 for the work. The pistol, a SA 1911A1, cost me $500. It will shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. The cost for the work would have been less, but I had him reblue the gun after he put the Bo-Mar sights on it.
It would not hurt to look for a used Wadcutter gun on Gunbroker or AuctionArms. .45s can have a lot of rounds through them and still shoot well and most times can be tuned up with a new bushing and some minor tightening of the slide.
About custom guns:
I have a Clark .38 Special 1911 conversion that Clark Sr. built in 1982. The pistol was perfect and has always shot well.
I also had Clark build a Heavy Slide using a Colt Series 70 .45 ACP in 2003. I had bought it back in 1979 and it had very few rounds through it. That pistol went back twice for problems for Clark to fix; ejection and the grip safety did not work. In addition, I had a local gunsmith re-do the trigger job. Clark did not notice that the sear and hammer pins were not parallel, so the hooks on the hammer were only contacting the sear on one side. The local guy took about 8 hours of careful stoning to get them to meet correctly. Before the second trigger job, the pistol would sometimes let go at 3.5 pounds, sometimes at 4.0 pounds; really not great when you're shooting 50 yard slow fires.
I guess my point is, even custom guns have problems and spending a lot of money for an "starting out" .45 may not be the best way to go.
Buddy Chapman, who built my Hardball gun, charged me around $400 for the work. The pistol, a SA 1911A1, cost me $500. It will shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. The cost for the work would have been less, but I had him reblue the gun after he put the Bo-Mar sights on it.
It would not hurt to look for a used Wadcutter gun on Gunbroker or AuctionArms. .45s can have a lot of rounds through them and still shoot well and most times can be tuned up with a new bushing and some minor tightening of the slide.
WNC Seabee
Member
This thread has been great; thanks for all the info. I'm in the same situation as mficken.
I got a Ruger 22/45 to get started and am having a ball. Depending on the day, I'm getting 8/10 in the black on the standard 25 yd target. [edit] With bulk Remington 550 pack ammo from Wally World. Shooting Federal made a HUGE difference with this gun![/edit]
Started looking for a 1911 last week and am just overwhelmed by the choices. Think I'm leaning towards an RIA Tactical to get started. Would that be a huge mistake? I figure it wouldn't lose too much value and in a year or so, after I figure out what I really want/need, I'll order up the custom pistol with the features I've identified as a need.
I got a Ruger 22/45 to get started and am having a ball. Depending on the day, I'm getting 8/10 in the black on the standard 25 yd target. [edit] With bulk Remington 550 pack ammo from Wally World. Shooting Federal made a HUGE difference with this gun![/edit]
Started looking for a 1911 last week and am just overwhelmed by the choices. Think I'm leaning towards an RIA Tactical to get started. Would that be a huge mistake? I figure it wouldn't lose too much value and in a year or so, after I figure out what I really want/need, I'll order up the custom pistol with the features I've identified as a need.
With the RIA Tactical, the sights are fixed I believe. If you want to get into Bullseye with the .45 it would be best to have adjustable sights.
This is especially relevant if you will shoot a "proper" match where both 50 yard, as well as 25 yard distances are used, where 3-8 clicks on an adjustable sight are needed. Also, should you use handloads eventually, one will find that different loads will have different points of impact. Again, having an adjustable sight would be a big bonus.
This is especially relevant if you will shoot a "proper" match where both 50 yard, as well as 25 yard distances are used, where 3-8 clicks on an adjustable sight are needed. Also, should you use handloads eventually, one will find that different loads will have different points of impact. Again, having an adjustable sight would be a big bonus.
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