Plausible to down a jetliner from a helicopter with a 0.50 Barret?

[Habeed]

The NYPD claim that they could shoot down a hijacked airliner, like the ones used on 9/11, by firing at one with a 0.50 rifle from a helicopter.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44666835/

On first glance, it sounds like a load of complete bull. The Boeing 767 that was hijacked to hit one of the towers has a maximum cruising speed of 493 knots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767

A typical police helicopter has a maximum cruising speed of 140 knots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_412

That doesn't even include the altitude limits. Police helicopters don't have pressurized cockpits, and the Bell 412 (one of the newer choppers the NYPD has purchased that I am using for reference) has a service ceiling of 20,000 feet, compared to a far higher ceiling for a jet.

So even if the police helicopter managed to get close enough to the jet to be in rifle range, in the best case scenario (helicopter chasing the jet) the jet would gain 5 miles of distance every minute. So the firing window for shooting the barett would be a matter of seconds...I would guess about 10-20 seconds is the best one could hope for.

I've never shot the semi-auto barett, but that doesn't sound like you could make more than 2-3 shots that would even have a chance of hitting the jet.

Could 2-3 rounds take down a boeing 767? It sounds highly implausible. You'd have to get a 1 in 1000 shot and hit the avionics, the control cables, BOTH engines, the pilots, etc. That's a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall target. Not to mention that firing from a moving helicopter, in exotic wind conditions...nope.

I call B.S. Now, if the NYPD had ordered some man portable anti aircraft missiles, that might be a different story. (missiles would still have the same difficulty getting into range but at least they
would home in on the engines and the warhead is designed to destroy aircraft. Plus, how would you fire one from inside a helicopter without getting burned by the backblast?)

Let' suppose the NYPD chief actually bought some Stinger missiles. Take a look at this page from the manual for the missile http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/44-18-1/Ch2.htm

Note the backblast area? Fire that inside a helicopter, and explosion might blow the operator out the open door, give third degree burns to everyone inside, blind the pilot, and the helicopter would probably crash killing all aboard.

 

[MtnCreek]

Police sources told The Post that Kelly and Browne were referring to Barrett .50 caliber rifles that can be mounted on most police helicopters. The bullets can rip through cockpit glass as well as fuselage, and their force has been compared to that of a bazooka.

Bazooka, Really?

It sounds like the .50 cal was just an assumption; I read another story this morning where the reporter said NYPD gave no details has to how they could do it.

The biggest problem would be the speed differences between a choper and a jet plane. How much do you lead a target moving at 600mph???

 

[USAF_Vet]

I've seen aircraft battle damage from small arms fire to rockets and Surface to air missiles. Your typical Boeing 767 or larger will take a hit from most anything but a SAM and keep on chugging. Pilot error after an attack accounts for a lot.

 

[Habeed]

So even MANPADs would have a hard time, you think? I could see the NYPD somehow getting their hands on a stinger or two, but Patriots or jets of their own? Seems pretty unlikely.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Unless they have Aegis technology that's equipped on missile frigates and cruisers and the like (SM launchers and CIWS systems) to control said Barrett, I say no way.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The .50 BMG is a "cross-over" cartridge, both antipersonnel and antimateriel in its military applications. What that means is, yes, at the right range it is able to disable machinery, such as a jet engine.

I do not wish to speculate further on how to "best" use a .50 (or any other caliber) for such an awful purpose. I will say the standard "Goldfinger scenario" (punch a hole in the fuselage and the plane explodes, since it's "pressurized") is bunk.

 

[Habeed]

Loosedhorse : are you trying to say that a jet at full speed could realistically be shot down this way? I'm saying it ain't happening, and the cries from the gun-grabbers that the Barrett is a terrorist weapon because this is supposedly possible are just noise.

 

[Sky]

I agree it would take a golden BB to down one in that scenario. Altitude would really not come into play with their thought process because they assume the aircraft would be low for impact or just taking off or on the ground at one of the airports. I would think the weapon would really be used for air to ground type missions for designated bad guys holed up and barrier destruction..Who knows what resides in the minds of their war gamers.

International presence
Kelly also told "60 Minutes" that the NYPD has intelligence officers stationed in cities around the world, including Abu Dhabi, Amman, Montreal, Toronto, Singapore and Paris.

If there was a trust and faith in the Feds ability to protect and serve maybe it would not be necessary. We all stand a better chance of dying by slipping in the bath tub than dying from a terrorist attack; yet the possibility of some horrendous assault by the wackos stimulate all our highly skilled planners/wackos to block their plans. The BGs wanted to change and attack America; look around they did.

Some of our cockpit crew members carry weapons now and on certain flights there are Air Marshals. Cockpit doors have been hardened along with jump seat permission restricted; These steps along with exit and entry into the cockpit is much more resricted since 9/11.

The next one (if there ever is) will be a rental aircraft if they want a suicide aircraft for a missile in my wacko opinion. Used to be able to lease a 727 for on a monthly basis for not all that much ( in aircraft lease terms).

 

[desidog]

Take a look at movies of kamikazes from the decks of carriers in the Pacific...prop planes, going slow, trained gun crews, full auto w/ lots of spare ammo handy...and still some get through.

If these guys think they'll do better with a scoped semi-auto from a moving, non-dedicated, platform...Suuuuuurrrrrre!

If NYPD are anything like the guards at the White House, they've used your tax dollars to buy some Stingers; (which are locked in a cabinet somewhere and won't be on hand in a timely fashion for a real event...that, or some guy has a really boring job sitting in a guard shack on top of a roof in Manhattan.)

 

[JustinJ]

The article makes no mention of taking down a 767 or other large commercial jet liner. I would venture the purpose is to shoot down smaller planes, such as a Cesna, loaded with explosive, radioactive or weaponized biolgical material. Taking down a smaller prop plane would probably be no problem from a helicopter however getting airborne and intercepting before the attack is completed seems highly unlikely.

I would also venture that the NYPD has no authority to shoot down a jet liner.

 

[Roan]

.50 Cal? Semi-auto? No. While it is possible to shoot down a plane with small arms, it's not likely and usually requires massed fire. Even then, it's a last-ditch defense when you don't have anything else.

I actually have a bit of authority here as the Army trained me to shoot down planes. A Stinger or Patriot would have little problem. The problem is that, if you do it over the city, you've just rained thousands of pounds of flaming debris across an extremely dense population zone. If engaged within the city, you've probably caused far more death and destruction than any single target the plane would have struck.

Either the NYPD has SAMs, they are deluded, or they are trying to assuage public fear by claiming something they can't do. I'm fairly certain that option #3 is correct here.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Loosedhorse : are you trying to say that a jet at full speed could realistically be shot down this way?

I do not wish to speculate further on how to "best" use a .50 (or any other caliber) for such an awful purpose.

'Nuff said. If my silence is enough for you to lump me with the gun-grabbers, well, that's that. However, if your question is, do I believe anything the NYPD says regarding guns of any kind, that answer will be "No."

 

[BCCL]

"mounted on"....I thought it was illegal to mount ordinance on civilian (non-military) aircraft????

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me the key part is this:

"...the weapon can be used to disable a boat or a small aircraft, the sources said.

The idea for this added layer of security came amid the earlier threat that Al-Qaida might use small aircraft such as crop dusters to spread chemical or biological weapon

The NYPD would not try to intercept an airliner, the sources added.

The Coast Guard and military have helicopters equipped with similar weaponry. NYPD officers train with the .50 caliber on the ground at ranges and have conducted exercises in their choppers at Fort Dix and other bases, the sources said."

IOW, better than having a prayer meeting.

Take a break. Think about all the problems involved. Intel/information; location of the Bad Guy and his route; all that stuff.

Enough. Interesting, but not really THR-topic stuff...