Vern Humphrey
Member
1911Tuner said:
Can't do that -- hippos are an endangered species.
Polishing a 1911 Feed Ramp
- Thread starter Ermac
- Start date
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Can't do that -- hippos are an endangered species.
gwalchmai
Member
Oh, OK. I thought maybe I was doing something extraordinarily bad.Chipperman said:
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Q Dremel
Nope...I was talkin' about the Q-tip or any buffing wheel with lapping compound. The problem isn't with too much metal removal as it is with
letting the buffing wheel sit still in one spot. It has to keep moving or you dish out the area a little with each passing second. Since we tend to
go back to the same spot and reverse directions, there are two such places in the ramp that get extra time. The frame ramp's angle is pretty closely toleranced, with very little margin for error. Add to the fact that even a little rounding off on the top corner can cause some major headaches when the round tries to deflect into the correct position in the barrel ramp...there are ample opportunities to screw the royal pooch.
A mirror finish on the ramp isn't necessary, and neither in the barrel throat...
which is actually the barrel RAMP, since the throat is at the front of the chamber...but I ain't gonna split hairs.
Come see my old stock GIs...tool marks and all... feed lead SWCs from the WW2 GI hardball magazines.
Chipperman said:
Nope...I was talkin' about the Q-tip or any buffing wheel with lapping compound. The problem isn't with too much metal removal as it is with
letting the buffing wheel sit still in one spot. It has to keep moving or you dish out the area a little with each passing second. Since we tend to
go back to the same spot and reverse directions, there are two such places in the ramp that get extra time. The frame ramp's angle is pretty closely toleranced, with very little margin for error. Add to the fact that even a little rounding off on the top corner can cause some major headaches when the round tries to deflect into the correct position in the barrel ramp...there are ample opportunities to screw the royal pooch.
A mirror finish on the ramp isn't necessary, and neither in the barrel throat...
which is actually the barrel RAMP, since the throat is at the front of the chamber...but I ain't gonna split hairs.
Come see my old stock GIs...tool marks and all... feed lead SWCs from the WW2 GI hardball magazines.
gwalchmai
Member
OK, Tuner, that makes sense. Thanks, I'll refrain.
Being the the Tool and Die trade, I recommend die sandpaper, it's 1200 grit... but for feed ramps, for a mirror finish, go with jeweler's rogue, but make sure you get the right kind, they make them in different grit and compounds, if you have stainless, get some made for stainless, steel for blue steel, and get the finest grit they have.... and go over them lightly!!!!
Tool marks are fine, if they are few and that the surface has been polished....Do not try to get them out, it will leave dishing, Tuner, knows what he is talking about....
Tuner, do you ever polish slide rails? I do with my guns, when they are really rough, with a diamond paddle stone for flatness, but always leave the deep tool marks in.....
Tool marks are fine, if they are few and that the surface has been polished....Do not try to get them out, it will leave dishing, Tuner, knows what he is talking about....
Tuner, do you ever polish slide rails? I do with my guns, when they are really rough, with a diamond paddle stone for flatness, but always leave the deep tool marks in.....
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Slide Rails
Howdy Greg,
Yep...I do. I use a stone for the first step, and follow it up with a finish lap
with a homemade slurry made up of J&B Bore Cleaner and CLP Breakfree, FP10
or even plain old Mil-Spec LSA. Mix it so that it'll just start to sag off the end of a screwdriver, just to the point of dripping. Let it stand open overnight and re-mix before use. I slather it in the rails, lugs, link, and the muzzle/bushing area if the fit is pretty tight. Hand-cycle 50 times and reapply. Keep workin' the slide for another 100 cycles. Rinse and check the fit. Repeat as necessary. Done right, the slide feels like it's movin' on buttered glass.
Also works on revolvers. Remove the sideplate, and lay it in. Replace the plate and work it through about 200 DA cycles while controlling the hammer with the offhand thumb hooked over the spur. Let it fall, but not hard.
Rinse, oil, and feel the difference.
Polishing the feed ramp on a 1911 ought to be done with fine paper on a fingertip...and be careful not to roll the top corner. Not necessary to
remove all toolmarks or obtain a mirror finish. Too much opportunity to
alter the angle of the ramp. While many pistols do okay with the ramp slightly out of spec...many also don't.
Howdy Greg,
Yep...I do. I use a stone for the first step, and follow it up with a finish lap
with a homemade slurry made up of J&B Bore Cleaner and CLP Breakfree, FP10
or even plain old Mil-Spec LSA. Mix it so that it'll just start to sag off the end of a screwdriver, just to the point of dripping. Let it stand open overnight and re-mix before use. I slather it in the rails, lugs, link, and the muzzle/bushing area if the fit is pretty tight. Hand-cycle 50 times and reapply. Keep workin' the slide for another 100 cycles. Rinse and check the fit. Repeat as necessary. Done right, the slide feels like it's movin' on buttered glass.
Also works on revolvers. Remove the sideplate, and lay it in. Replace the plate and work it through about 200 DA cycles while controlling the hammer with the offhand thumb hooked over the spur. Let it fall, but not hard.
Rinse, oil, and feel the difference.
Polishing the feed ramp on a 1911 ought to be done with fine paper on a fingertip...and be careful not to roll the top corner. Not necessary to
remove all toolmarks or obtain a mirror finish. Too much opportunity to
alter the angle of the ramp. While many pistols do okay with the ramp slightly out of spec...many also don't.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bidness
Howdy bowline, and welcome aboard.
Nope...Sorry. I let my FFL lapse several years ago, and can't receive the gun
via normal channels. Friends and family that can bring the pistols to me and wait for'em, I still do a little work on...reliability tweaks and light repairs...but most of what I do these days is for me, myself, and I...
and mainly salvaging and rebuilding old GI pistols when I can find one
that's up for grabs.
I've got kinfolks all over Tennessee...Where you be at?
Howdy bowline, and welcome aboard.
Nope...Sorry. I let my FFL lapse several years ago, and can't receive the gun
via normal channels. Friends and family that can bring the pistols to me and wait for'em, I still do a little work on...reliability tweaks and light repairs...but most of what I do these days is for me, myself, and I...
and mainly salvaging and rebuilding old GI pistols when I can find one
that's up for grabs.
I've got kinfolks all over Tennessee...Where you be at?
I don't believe anybody with the brains of a pissant would be using a grinding wheel on a Dremel for polishing a feedramp. If you use the soft, white polishing pad that attaches to the mandrel with a screw, and a little Flitz or Simichrome, with the Dremel set on its lowest speed, I hope you've got a few hours to spare, if you plan on changing any metal contours.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Dremel
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!:banghead:
Take the Dremel to the range and shoot it a few times...
Rockstar said:
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!:banghead:
Take the Dremel to the range and shoot it a few times...
Gunsnrovers
Member
A feed ramp should be smooth. A mirror is for shaving. Don't get the two confused.
The correct tool for this job is your index finger.
The correct tool for this job is your index finger.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Kingsport!
Know anything about Fordtown Road? (Cox's Store ring any bells?) Had two aunts and uncles that lived on Fordtown, and another set over in Colonial Heights. Grandparents lived on Berry Street. All dead now...
Got a bud over in Johnson City that comes to visit now and then. he's a member here. Ya might can hook up with him next trip and come set a spell.
bowline said:
Know anything about Fordtown Road? (Cox's Store ring any bells?) Had two aunts and uncles that lived on Fordtown, and another set over in Colonial Heights. Grandparents lived on Berry Street. All dead now...
Got a bud over in Johnson City that comes to visit now and then. he's a member here. Ya might can hook up with him next trip and come set a spell.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Dremel, Dremel
uglit...Find a blacksmith...one with a really big hammer and anvil...Use your imagination.
In the absence of a blacksmith, an arbor press will do.
Cheers!
uglit said:
uglit...Find a blacksmith...one with a really big hammer and anvil...Use your imagination.
In the absence of a blacksmith, an arbor press will do.
Cheers!
gwalchmai
Member
But Tuner, how do I orient my barrel in the arbor press for the most efficient removal of those tool marks?1911Tuner said:uglit...Find a blacksmith...one with a really big hammer and anvil...Use your imagination.
In the absence of a blacksmith, an arbor press will do.
Cheers!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Arbor
Well, ya gotta have the right attachments...
The Dremel has been touted as a general-purpose wundertool for so long, that most folks think that it was designed for general purpose use. The Dremel has been around for a lot longer than Sears has been selling it.
It's actually nothing more than a downsized die grinder, intended to be used during an operation known as "Die Sinking" performed by trained, skilled and experienced tool and die makers. As such, the average handyman doesn't understand that a die grinder can wreak havoc on whatever it touches at 30,000 rpms...even with a buffing mop and fine lapping compound...unless
he understands exactly how to use it.
I've seen too many frames and barrels that have been wrecked by "Bubba with a Dremel after reading about how his pistol had to have a "Ramp and Throat Job" in order to make it feed hollowpoints. Gun won't return to battery? Ramp and throat job! Got bolt-over-base failures to feed?
Ramp and throat job! Failure to extract? Ramp and throat job! Can't hit the broad side of a barn? Ramp and throat job!
Whenever I'm eyeballing a perspective addition to my collection, that's one of the first things that I look at. If I see evidence of a Dremel at work, my offer drops according to how much "mirror polished throat job" is evident. I've turned down several pistols because of it.
The skilled smith does a ramp and throat job because something was out of spec with the angles, or to correct an issue that wouldn't allow the gun to
feed. This is correctly done with machine tools, or a scrape if done freehand by a skilled tradesman. Polishing is done in order to blend the altered areas and make them acceptably smooth, and the Dremel applied as a finishing touch and for a very short time period. 5 seconds or so usually does it...and usually only in certain areas.
Very few production guns need attention to the frame and barrel ramp, and even then, a mirror polish isn't necessary. It's also not necessary to remove all tool marks, either. Very often, that in itself will kill the part because the
Dremeler concentrates pressure and dwell time on the area...and alters a critical angle or dimension. When he discovers that the gun still won't feed, he figures that it needs more Dremeling...and so it goes, until the part is
serviceable only as a paperweight or a reminder not to do it again.
Fortunately, the 1911 is pretty forgiving in this respect, and incorrect or sloppy work on the ramps is tolerated well while still allowing the gun to function...but there's a line that, once crossed, fits into the category of
"The Trip Down the Highway of No Return." At that point, the repair becomes
an expensive affair that often requires machining away the frame bridge and installing an insert that brings the ramp back into spec, or the installation of a barrel with an integral ramp. Neither of these options is desireable on a
collectible gun because it pretty well negates the value, and assigns the once functional and valuable heirloom to yeoman service.
I once saw a pristine Union Switch & Signal that had been subjected to the classic "gunzine" ramp and throat job. The original barrel had been hogged out until a basketball would nearly fit it, completely destroying the cartridge case support in the bottom of the chamber...and the top corner of the frame ramp had been rounded off until it didn't have a prayer of functioning with hardball without the hogged-out barrel, complete with dangerously bulged cases every time the gun was fired. It was bright and shiny though...and
Bubba was very proud of his skill as a smith while demonstrating that it would
gobble up the various hollowpoints in his test batch. He became very defensive and agitated when I pointed out that his endeavors had not only rendered the gun dangerous, but that the value had dropped from about
2000 dollars (going rate on nice US&S pistols at the time) to 300-dollar wall hanger status.
The Dremel tool is a great little invention...but its use in gunsmithing is limited.
gwalchmai said:But Tuner, how do I orient my barrel in the arbor press for the most efficient removal of those tool marks?
Well, ya gotta have the right attachments...
The Dremel has been touted as a general-purpose wundertool for so long, that most folks think that it was designed for general purpose use. The Dremel has been around for a lot longer than Sears has been selling it.
It's actually nothing more than a downsized die grinder, intended to be used during an operation known as "Die Sinking" performed by trained, skilled and experienced tool and die makers. As such, the average handyman doesn't understand that a die grinder can wreak havoc on whatever it touches at 30,000 rpms...even with a buffing mop and fine lapping compound...unless
he understands exactly how to use it.
I've seen too many frames and barrels that have been wrecked by "Bubba with a Dremel after reading about how his pistol had to have a "Ramp and Throat Job" in order to make it feed hollowpoints. Gun won't return to battery? Ramp and throat job! Got bolt-over-base failures to feed?
Ramp and throat job! Failure to extract? Ramp and throat job! Can't hit the broad side of a barn? Ramp and throat job!
Whenever I'm eyeballing a perspective addition to my collection, that's one of the first things that I look at. If I see evidence of a Dremel at work, my offer drops according to how much "mirror polished throat job" is evident. I've turned down several pistols because of it.
The skilled smith does a ramp and throat job because something was out of spec with the angles, or to correct an issue that wouldn't allow the gun to
feed. This is correctly done with machine tools, or a scrape if done freehand by a skilled tradesman. Polishing is done in order to blend the altered areas and make them acceptably smooth, and the Dremel applied as a finishing touch and for a very short time period. 5 seconds or so usually does it...and usually only in certain areas.
Very few production guns need attention to the frame and barrel ramp, and even then, a mirror polish isn't necessary. It's also not necessary to remove all tool marks, either. Very often, that in itself will kill the part because the
Dremeler concentrates pressure and dwell time on the area...and alters a critical angle or dimension. When he discovers that the gun still won't feed, he figures that it needs more Dremeling...and so it goes, until the part is
serviceable only as a paperweight or a reminder not to do it again.
Fortunately, the 1911 is pretty forgiving in this respect, and incorrect or sloppy work on the ramps is tolerated well while still allowing the gun to function...but there's a line that, once crossed, fits into the category of
"The Trip Down the Highway of No Return." At that point, the repair becomes
an expensive affair that often requires machining away the frame bridge and installing an insert that brings the ramp back into spec, or the installation of a barrel with an integral ramp. Neither of these options is desireable on a
collectible gun because it pretty well negates the value, and assigns the once functional and valuable heirloom to yeoman service.
I once saw a pristine Union Switch & Signal that had been subjected to the classic "gunzine" ramp and throat job. The original barrel had been hogged out until a basketball would nearly fit it, completely destroying the cartridge case support in the bottom of the chamber...and the top corner of the frame ramp had been rounded off until it didn't have a prayer of functioning with hardball without the hogged-out barrel, complete with dangerously bulged cases every time the gun was fired. It was bright and shiny though...and
Bubba was very proud of his skill as a smith while demonstrating that it would
gobble up the various hollowpoints in his test batch. He became very defensive and agitated when I pointed out that his endeavors had not only rendered the gun dangerous, but that the value had dropped from about
2000 dollars (going rate on nice US&S pistols at the time) to 300-dollar wall hanger status.
The Dremel tool is a great little invention...but its use in gunsmithing is limited.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Coast
Nope. I'm in the central Piedmont not far from the NC Zoo...about 60 miles north of Charlotte and 25 miles southeast of Winston-Salem. I can make it to Fordtown Road via I-77/I-81 in about 3 hours and 20 minutes if I bend the speed limit a little. Did you get my PM?
bowline said:
Nope. I'm in the central Piedmont not far from the NC Zoo...about 60 miles north of Charlotte and 25 miles southeast of Winston-Salem. I can make it to Fordtown Road via I-77/I-81 in about 3 hours and 20 minutes if I bend the speed limit a little. Did you get my PM?
The Drew
Member
I've never used anything more than the cotton tipped dremel and some polishing compound... Any more than that and you're asking for trouble in ANY firearm...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Double Double, Toil and Trouble
And sometimes even that'll getcha in over your head.
The Drew said:
And sometimes even that'll getcha in over your head.
negative on the pm
Hi Tuner
Just a hop, skip and a jump away, then...
Didn't get your PM but try the following e-mail
CRET01 (yep, zero one) dot SHASTA at MSCAFLOAT dot MSC dot NAVY dot MIL
As an aside, you ever know a large gentleman, went by the name of Bear, made holsters and etc. up around your area?
Hi Tuner
Just a hop, skip and a jump away, then...
Didn't get your PM but try the following e-mail
CRET01 (yep, zero one) dot SHASTA at MSCAFLOAT dot MSC dot NAVY dot MIL
As an aside, you ever know a large gentleman, went by the name of Bear, made holsters and etc. up around your area?
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bear
I used to know a guy named Jimmy M. who was AKA "The Bear". He dabbled with leather a little, but I don't know if he made gunleather.
I'll send an E-mail as soon as I decode the address.
I used to know a guy named Jimmy M. who was AKA "The Bear". He dabbled with leather a little, but I don't know if he made gunleather.
I'll send an E-mail as soon as I decode the address.
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