powder position
- Thread starter murf
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RecoilRob
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Do your cases come out of the gun clean'ish or smoky at 8.0 Unique? I can't load anywhere near that low and use them in the Taurus Thunderbolt slide gun or they come out black and will gum up the works within a hundred shots.
Most of lately I've been running 9.5 Unique under the 250 cast slugs and these expand enough to keep the action clean though they do hit a little in the shoulder. Tried 200's and they didn't seem to offer enough resistance to get the cases expanded before they were really screaming out of the barrel and starting to lead a bit. Experimented with Schoefields in it hoping for more shots and this did give me an extra one, but the rims needed turned down to fit in the magazine which was a pain. Otherwise they worked well and stay cleaner with the same charges as the Colt and just thinking about it might give you more consistent velocity and accuracy at the velocities you're wanting to see.
For the Thunderbolt I've also found that full length sizing is bad for it...so only size them enough to hold the bullet now and this has also helped keep the cases clean. If your gun has a tight enough chamber to let those 8.0's seal well that's a great thing!
A long while back I tried the 231 with a tuff of pillow stuffing to keep the powder back against the primer but didn't think it worth the additional effort to continue doing it. But then again, I wasn't trying for the accuracy that you are so maybe that would work well for you. At the very least...you're getting to have fun with this!
Most of lately I've been running 9.5 Unique under the 250 cast slugs and these expand enough to keep the action clean though they do hit a little in the shoulder. Tried 200's and they didn't seem to offer enough resistance to get the cases expanded before they were really screaming out of the barrel and starting to lead a bit. Experimented with Schoefields in it hoping for more shots and this did give me an extra one, but the rims needed turned down to fit in the magazine which was a pain. Otherwise they worked well and stay cleaner with the same charges as the Colt and just thinking about it might give you more consistent velocity and accuracy at the velocities you're wanting to see.
For the Thunderbolt I've also found that full length sizing is bad for it...so only size them enough to hold the bullet now and this has also helped keep the cases clean. If your gun has a tight enough chamber to let those 8.0's seal well that's a great thing!
A long while back I tried the 231 with a tuff of pillow stuffing to keep the powder back against the primer but didn't think it worth the additional effort to continue doing it. But then again, I wasn't trying for the accuracy that you are so maybe that would work well for you. At the very least...you're getting to have fun with this!
Murf: I do believe that powder placement does make a difference, and I believe that what we see depends on the powder and the quantity. But there is something that I don't see in your data, and is a sufficient number of shots to calculate averages with any confidence. .
I think Blue Dot is not a good 45 LC powder based on my data. All of my charges are thrown on a Dillion 550B and you can see how much tighter the ES's and SD's are for Unique compared to Blue Dot. Blue Dot has extreme spreads of hundreds of feet per second. That is just awful in my opinion, and if your data strings are small, you may not realize that velocity averages are going to be highly variable just due to the powder and that might be masking velocity changes due to position.
I don't recommend Blue Dot for the 45 LC because of these high extreme spreads. I don't have the means to measure pressure curves, or see pressure curves, all I can see is velocity. But, I am a worry wart and I want as low of SD's and ES's as possible, because I believe that consistency is good, and consistency provides safety. I could be wrong, but someone better provide pressure curve data from tests, before I will believe them. I do know that Hercules dropped 45 LC loads and Blue Dot but Alliant has Blue Dot for the 250 LSWC but not 250 JHP. I don't think that is particularly encouraging.
5 1/2" USFA Rodeo
250 LRN (.452") 8.5 grs Unique thrown, R-P cases, CCI300 primers
12-May-02 T = 80°F
Ave Vel =855
Std Dev =16
ES 59.91
High 885.4
Low 825.5
Number Shots 12
250 LRN (.452") 11.5 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP
11-Sep-05 T = 85 °F shoots close to point of aim acceptable accuracy
Ave Vel =845
Std Dev =48
ES 183.6
High 933.3
Low 749.7
N = 18
250 LRN (.452") 12.0 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP
11-Sep-05 T = 85 °F shoots close to point of aim good accuracy
Ave Vel =904
Std Dev =44
ES 149.6
High 955.2
Low 806
N = 15
I will agree that 12 shots is not a large sample size, and if I search my data, I am certain that I have some 32 shot strings with Unique, but not with the same 45 LC which I shot Blue Dot. I did not shoot large quantities of Blue Dot in 45 LC over the chronograph, so my sample sizes are also small. But, I shot enough to convince myself that Blue Dot and the 45LC is not a good combination.
This is Unique data in a different pistol:
M625-9 Mountain Gun 4" Barrel
250 LRN(.452")Tenn Valley Bullet 8.5 grs Unique lot UN331 1989 , R-P cases WLP (brass)
16-May-09 high 83 °F
Ave Vel = 908
Std Dev = 23.3
ES = 92.5
High = 965.3
Low = 872.8
N = 29
I think Blue Dot is not a good 45 LC powder based on my data. All of my charges are thrown on a Dillion 550B and you can see how much tighter the ES's and SD's are for Unique compared to Blue Dot. Blue Dot has extreme spreads of hundreds of feet per second. That is just awful in my opinion, and if your data strings are small, you may not realize that velocity averages are going to be highly variable just due to the powder and that might be masking velocity changes due to position.
I don't recommend Blue Dot for the 45 LC because of these high extreme spreads. I don't have the means to measure pressure curves, or see pressure curves, all I can see is velocity. But, I am a worry wart and I want as low of SD's and ES's as possible, because I believe that consistency is good, and consistency provides safety. I could be wrong, but someone better provide pressure curve data from tests, before I will believe them. I do know that Hercules dropped 45 LC loads and Blue Dot but Alliant has Blue Dot for the 250 LSWC but not 250 JHP. I don't think that is particularly encouraging.
5 1/2" USFA Rodeo
250 LRN (.452") 8.5 grs Unique thrown, R-P cases, CCI300 primers
12-May-02 T = 80°F
Ave Vel =855
Std Dev =16
ES 59.91
High 885.4
Low 825.5
Number Shots 12
250 LRN (.452") 11.5 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP
11-Sep-05 T = 85 °F shoots close to point of aim acceptable accuracy
Ave Vel =845
Std Dev =48
ES 183.6
High 933.3
Low 749.7
N = 18
250 LRN (.452") 12.0 grs Blue Dot R-P cases, WLP
11-Sep-05 T = 85 °F shoots close to point of aim good accuracy
Ave Vel =904
Std Dev =44
ES 149.6
High 955.2
Low 806
N = 15
I will agree that 12 shots is not a large sample size, and if I search my data, I am certain that I have some 32 shot strings with Unique, but not with the same 45 LC which I shot Blue Dot. I did not shoot large quantities of Blue Dot in 45 LC over the chronograph, so my sample sizes are also small. But, I shot enough to convince myself that Blue Dot and the 45LC is not a good combination.
This is Unique data in a different pistol:
M625-9 Mountain Gun 4" Barrel
250 LRN(.452")Tenn Valley Bullet 8.5 grs Unique lot UN331 1989 , R-P cases WLP (brass)
16-May-09 high 83 °F
Ave Vel = 908
Std Dev = 23.3
ES = 92.5
High = 965.3
Low = 872.8
N = 29
Last edited:
recoilrob,
i'm getting no soot on the 8.0gn unique load. the reason is probably a .005" bullet tension and a crimp all the way to the bottom of the groove.
i always partial size my 45lc cases. these are sized down to .4" above the case head.
i just ran the w231 load again and am not getting the accuracy i want. i made up another batch of 8.0gn unique to make sure it's not me that is making the load bad. i know the unique load can shoot.
murf
i'm getting no soot on the 8.0gn unique load. the reason is probably a .005" bullet tension and a crimp all the way to the bottom of the groove.
i always partial size my 45lc cases. these are sized down to .4" above the case head.
i just ran the w231 load again and am not getting the accuracy i want. i made up another batch of 8.0gn unique to make sure it's not me that is making the load bad. i know the unique load can shoot.
murf
slamfire,
yes, the first load i tested was with blue dot. really bad es numbers and really position sensitive. but, blue dot loaded up to "ruger only" pressures, and 1200 fps, is very accurate in my blackhawk. the 900 fps load falls on its face, though. the .005" bullet tension helps here, too.
thanks for the blue dot data. this confirms my decision not to pursue blue dot any more for this load.
murf
yes, the first load i tested was with blue dot. really bad es numbers and really position sensitive. but, blue dot loaded up to "ruger only" pressures, and 1200 fps, is very accurate in my blackhawk. the 900 fps load falls on its face, though. the .005" bullet tension helps here, too.
thanks for the blue dot data. this confirms my decision not to pursue blue dot any more for this load.
murf
Your experience mirrors mine, Blue Dot velocities become consistent the higher the pressure. But even so, with lead bullets, Blue Dot caused severe leading in my 357 Magnum. At velocities where 2400, H110, or AA#9 gave little to no leading. Blue Dot worked best at magnum velocities and pressures with jacketed bullets.
5.6 grains titegroup, 255gn lrnfp, cci300, win cases:
down: 736, 740, 738, 754, 715 avg. 735, 39 es
up: 741, 762, 772, 763, 753 avg. 755. 31 es
least position sensitive so far. am at the bottom of the range, 6.3 is at the top (non-ruger only load).
murf
down: 736, 740, 738, 754, 715 avg. 735, 39 es
up: 741, 762, 772, 763, 753 avg. 755. 31 es
least position sensitive so far. am at the bottom of the range, 6.3 is at the top (non-ruger only load).
murf
well, i got back into this powder position testing. 255 gn lrnfp, cci 300, med. crimp, 45 colt
6.0gn titegroup:
d - 773, 766, 769, 771, 761 12es, 769 avg.
u - 805, 796, 794, 790, 761 54es, 790 avg.
still not good enough numbers and the velocity is too low. i'm wanting 900fps.
murf
6.0gn titegroup:
d - 773, 766, 769, 771, 761 12es, 769 avg.
u - 805, 796, 794, 790, 761 54es, 790 avg.
still not good enough numbers and the velocity is too low. i'm wanting 900fps.
murf
caution: these are "ruger only" loads. use only in the appropriate weapons.
well i'm finally getting somewhere. the speed is up and the accuracy is much better, although the powder up groups are a bit scattered. i'm going to load up some more @ 8.5 and see if i can get the powder up group as accurate as the powder down group.
titegroup seems to be working.
murf
well i'm finally getting somewhere. the speed is up and the accuracy is much better, although the powder up groups are a bit scattered. i'm going to load up some more @ 8.5 and see if i can get the powder up group as accurate as the powder down group.
titegroup seems to be working.
murf
Attachments
thanks to reeferman for the titegroup powder suggestion. it works great at the 900 fps level.
this next target is for slamfire who said to stay away from blue dot:
i said bluedot is fine at higher velocities. i was right if, and only if, you shoot "powder down". powder up groups all over the place.
i also decided to see why my "kahuna" load is so accurate no matter in what position the powder happens to be. my current grip pushes the shots to the left, and i am fixing that, but the groups are not bad for off-hand @ 32 yards.
murf
p.s. caution: these are definitely "ruger only" loads and should be used only in the appropriate weapons.
this next target is for slamfire who said to stay away from blue dot:
i said bluedot is fine at higher velocities. i was right if, and only if, you shoot "powder down". powder up groups all over the place.
i also decided to see why my "kahuna" load is so accurate no matter in what position the powder happens to be. my current grip pushes the shots to the left, and i am fixing that, but the groups are not bad for off-hand @ 32 yards.
murf
p.s. caution: these are definitely "ruger only" loads and should be used only in the appropriate weapons.
Attachments
Last edited:
walkalong,
the 45 colt case has a huge volume. i'm amazed that titegroup does so well with only 8.5 grains rattling around in there. i'm going to do a 50 round accuracy test on that load to make sure this load isn't a fluke, but i am sure it will stay accurate.
blue dot was my "go to" powder in the 45lc, but it is now religated to 357 magnum with 158 and 180 grain bullets only.
murf
the 45 colt case has a huge volume. i'm amazed that titegroup does so well with only 8.5 grains rattling around in there. i'm going to do a 50 round accuracy test on that load to make sure this load isn't a fluke, but i am sure it will stay accurate.
blue dot was my "go to" powder in the 45lc, but it is now religated to 357 magnum with 158 and 180 grain bullets only.
murf
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