Powerbelts and FFFg: too much fouling? Or wrong bullet?

[Buckskinner]

Gents,
After 25 years of shooting paper with patched roundballs, and the occasional blacktail foray, I got drawn for a ML elk hunt in SW WA.

WA regs for ML are: open sights, inline okay as long as the nipple is exposed (not easy to find modern inlines with exposed nipples), no sabots, lead only projectiles, no 209 primers.

Well, my old CVA Hawken/Frontier rifle fits this bill, and I'm sure historically that design is responsible for much meat hanging in camps and markets around the world.

I chose to leave my Tennessee Po' Boy flintlock with the 41" barrel at home. SW WA ain't exactly open fields. Picture a rainforest of blackberries, devil's club, vine maples, ferns and mossy blowdown, where the ground always feels spongy. The clearcuts look easier to move through, until you're in 'em. Then the 3 generations of slash reach up and ain't too helpful. Totin' a 5' long rifle through that stuff ain't so recommended...

So I swapped some parts and got the "Frontier Rifle" up to speed. Its got a 28" barrel, and has won some shootin' contests at rendezvous, but I didn't trust a 280 gr +/- round ball going at about 1200 fps +/- on elk. Though I'd like to hear folks' experience to the contrary!

So I chose a 385 gr PB as my first conical bullet, over 100 gr FFFg Goex, ignited by a musket cap.

I should say I tried Pyrodex pellets first, but they failed to go. After popping about 6 caps, I finally dribbled some powder down the nipple in to the drum. It went, after a 2 second hangfire.

First question: Anyone have success with pellet powder in a sidelock with musket caps?

So, the Pyrodex went off, and I loaded a second PB. It got stuck about 4" down. I finally pulled it, and swabbed the barrel.

The third bullet went down nicely in a clean bore. It shot fine.

The fourth bullet got stuck in the same place as the second. After much cursing, I pulled that one too.

Fifth bullet in a freshly swabbed barrel, down she went.

Sixth shot: no good though pasted with Bore Butter, its stuck in there still, as my ball screw pulled out of the short starter, so its to the workbench the rifle went and sits there still, recipient of many a baleful glare...

Not the rifles fault though, is it?

Second and third question: Is FFFg too fine for unpatched bullets? Does it cause too much fouling for a PB, or any conical?

Last question: Anyone patch a conical?

I will try FFg next, and try PB again. But would a different bullet, say a Lyman GPB with its prelubed grooves help?

 

[roundball]

If you're going to use a conical, I'd recommend the Hornady Great Plains HP, with an Oxyoke wonderwad under it...

 

[K.A.T.]

The trick to using pellets in a sidehammer is loading 20 grs. of loose powder in front of the pellets.I hunt with a TC Hawkins 50cal. with a power belt and pellets.It takes 20grns. of loose powder first for ignition of the pellets,15 grns. worked 7 out of 10 times, 20 grns. has never let me down,neither has the powerbelt.

Triple 777 is harder to ignite,so stick to the pyrodex.

I also use the same load of powder with a felt wad and a maxi-ball,both bullets work great in my rifle.

Using the pellets will improve your accuracy,it takes the issue of packing the powder the same every time out of the process.

So here is my loading process when going hunting.Run a dry patch in the barrel a couple of times.Drop in 60 grns. of loose powder,pack the patch in the barrel you just used to dry the barrel out with.Fire this off to clear the barrel and nipple area of any oil,if it hangfires any at all do it again.Now you are ready to load,drop in 20grns. of loose powder,bump the lock with the palm of your hand to get the powder over in the hole that leads to the nipple,this is important.Load the two pellets and then your bullet of choice,it has never let me down.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

3F generally fouls less than 2F. I would use it in the .50 about 70 grs. dump loose powder into wiped bore and whack breech area few times to jar some grains into the flash channel, then felt wad or a patch then the slug and compress snugly. I use the Lee REAL slug, it does good with the 1-48 rifling.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

I'll second the Hornady great Plains bullets. My favorites...but I don't load any wad or patch behind them. They're tight enough and greasy enough out of the box. How well does your gun fire patched roundballs? If it fires those fine I'd say it's not the gun but the bullet.

 

[Buckskinner]

So, 3f fouls less than 2f? I like the underwad idea, and I'll try it with the GPB. I also like the 20gr loose under pellets. I was gonna try that at the range, but didn't.

And this gun shoots patched balls great.

I went with the PB because the "gun counter" guy told me the GPB were, gulp, "obsolete". Now I usually have my BS filters on high whenever I"m within 50' of a gun counter, but this guy seemed to have some credibility, and his shop was 100% ML oriented.

But it sure seems like my bore has to be freshly swabbed to get a PB down it.
Which means a quick follow up reload is out of the question, unless with a round ball.

So KAT, that's why your 60 gr. squib load won't work on my rifle. It would really foul the barrel, and the bullet wouldn't go down.

Has anyone tried both the GPB and the PB and found the the GPB to be slightly smaller and easier to load than the PB? Also, would you say they are harder than the very soft PB?

Regards.

 

[Buckskinner]

Unless the PB's are not exactly the same. Maybe there is a tolerance issue...

 

[AntiqueCollector]

For what it's worth, my guns don't like those powerbelts either which is why I suspected it was not the gun, but hornady great plains bullets work just fine for me and I have used some lyman bullets without trouble too. One good whack with a starter (or just the ramrod held tight) to start them and they seem to go down my barrels quite easily. Easier than a roundball actually because I tend to patch my roundballs fairly tight on my first shots before going looser as the fouling makes it difficult. Try loose powder and a different bullet and see what happens...if that works give the pellets with a little loose powder to help ignition a try too if you're intent on using the pellets.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I like thomspson center maxi ball/maxi hunter...forget the name. they work WAY BETTER than powerbelts and are the next best thing to sabots.

Try a thompson center balck diamond...they have an exposed nipple and work great

 

[Lammie]

Powerbelt bullets

I shoot powerbelt bullets exclusively in my TC Hawken sidelock, Traditions buckskinner inline and NEF break action. Most of my hunting is done in the woods of North Western Wisconsin, whitetail and coyote. The powerbelt bullets have performed admirably with excellent power dissapation and expansion. However the gun powder used is extremely important. The NEF which uses a 209 primer has no problem using pellet ammo. I have used Triple seven, Pyrodex and American Pioneer. All are FFg or equivalent. I have never had a misfire with any of them. From a cleanliness and accuracy standpoint the NEF does prefer American Pioneer Jim Shockey gold. The TC Hawken and Tradition Buckskinner on the other hand have big problems with pellet powder. They both shoot FFg pyrodex loose powder and the other powders very well if I crush them up. The problem is that the pelletized powder is compressed so hard that the ignition from typical No. 11 caps is not hot enough to ignite them. Some CCI caps are a little more reliable but not 100%. Of course when you have the elk of a lifetime in front of you, you want confidence that your firearm will go "bang".

If you use a loose powder, either bought that way or made by crushing the pelletized powder, I think you will see a dramatic improvement.

As far as bullets go the Powerbelt is an excellent choice. I say that from experience.

Most people buy the pelletized powder because It gives them the perception that they can reload faster if they need a "second shot". You are obviously an experienced "smoke pole" shooter and can more than likely load one of your firearms nearly as fast with loose powder as you can with pelletized powder. Also, think about it, how often does one get the chance for a decent second shot? Even with a modern cartridge rile. As always, 99% of the time it is the first shot that counts. In my 57 years of whitetail hunting I can count on one hand the number of times I have killed a deer with the second shot after missing the first one.

 

[Buckskinner]

Well, I'm no speed loader, but if I'm gonna use loose powder to prime the pellets, then I'd just skip the pellets. But I would use pre-measured powder quick loader tubes, and probably a loading block of some sort.

Keep your powder (and primers) dry!

 

[armedandsafe]

Just a comment on a statement you made in the first post. Sabots ARE legal in Washington, but some Wardens don't believe it. Print out a copy of this letter and carry it with you.

http://www.prbullet.com/wa.doc

October 5, 2006



TO: Bruce Bjork, Chief, Enforcement Program

FROM: Dave Brittell, Assistant Director, Wildlife Program

SUBJECT: INTERPRETATION OF WAC 232-12-051


There has been some confusion and different interpretations provided to the public by the Wildlife Program, Enforcement Program, and the Regional Offices regarding WAC 232-12-051, and which projectiles are legal to use during muzzleloader season.

A conference call was convened today that included Steve Pozzanghera from Wildlife Program, Dan Boes representing the Enforcement Program for Deputy Chief Jarmon, and Sheila Lynch, Assistant Attorney General from the AG’s office. The group reviewed the WAC and discussed the differences in interpretation. The result of the discussion was that the group agreed the stronger interpretation of WAC 232-12-051 referencing non-jacketed, lead projectiles is that this language was intended to prohibit the use of copper and other metal jackets used to surround the lead core of a bullet and to limit that type of technology. The language does not specifically prohibit other types of attachments to lead projectiles, such as non-lead tips plastic or otherwise, plastic bases, or plastic sabots. The Wildlife Program believes that this interpretation was the intent at the time the rule was adopted. This was also Wildlife Program’s original interpretation of the current language as written.

Given the confusion over the interpretation of the rule language, and given Wildlife Program’s interpretation that lead bullets with non-lead tips, plastic bases, and plastic sabots are legal, the Wildlife Program recommends that the Enforcement Program not cite muzzleloaders for using those types of equipment. Wildlife Program also recommends that Enforcement Program circulate this information through the Regional Captains to all of the Detachments.

We would welcome further discussions with Enforcement, Hunter Education, and the Fish and Wildlife Commission if it is determined that the current wording of the rule language needs modification in the future for additional clarity.

cc: Bill Jarmon
Sheila Lynch
Regional Directors
Regional Wildlife Program Managers
Regional Office Managers
Mik Mikitik
Dave Ware
Michelle Gavin-Panos

My experience with 3 different Hawkens is that FFg fouls less than FFFg, with the heavier bullets and/or longer barrel. I don't like the expense or unreliability of pellets. I use the quick-load carriers and PoweerBelts.

Pops

 

[Buckskinner]

Ah, so sabots are legal! Interesting. I don't have the WA regs in front of me, but seems to me there was a minimum projectile weight, that seemed to rule out most sabots.

 

[Mark whiz]

Personally, I would steer clear of a 3FG powder and PowerBelt bullets. In my testing, I've found that the plastic cups tend to not seperate well from the bullets, causing them to become very inaccurate. And always lube the posts that hold the cup before shooting them.

You might want to check out these bullets:
http://members.aol.com/noexcusesb/index.html

I've had very goods results in shooting these out of my In-line with 2fg 777 and a lubed wad.

And ANY bullet from PRBullet (Precision Rifle) are worth their weight in gold. They make the most accurate bullets I've ever shot and have performed marvelously on game.

 

[armedandsafe]

Reading page 65 of the latest reg phamplet, I see:

Minimum .40 caliber - So the weight limit implied is the weight of a .40 cal round ball. Smooth-bore of .60 cal can use #1 buckshot. Lead bullets with polymer tips are legal.

Shot shell and 209 primers are not legal. ...original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the elements.

Only one barrel of a double barrel muzzleloader may be loaded or capped at any one time while hunting in a muzzleloading season. Muzzleloaders hunting in a fire arm restriction area, outside of a muzzleloading season, may have both barrels charged.

I'm going to call Oly pretty soon and see if reddot would be legal during modern firearm season in a restricted firearm area. My .72 cal rifle will be ready next year.

Pops

 

[Buckskinner]

Hmm. So sabots are legal (and polymer tips) as long as they are at least as heavy as a .40 round ball, and non-jacketed lead?