PRE-1898 and the NFA

[Bazoo]

I'm curious as to whether a gun being made prior to 1898 excludes it from being an NFA item?

Specifically,

Converting a rifle into a pistol. The reason I ask about this is because of the Remington Rolling Block rifle and pistols, which were both produced before 1898. So if someone had a rifle made prior to 1898, would they be legal to convert it to a pistol? If not, would it be legal if the conversion had been undertaken prior to the NFAs taking effect, or prior to 1898?

Machineguns made prior to 1898.

Short barreled rifles/shotguns made prior to 1898.

Thanks for taking the time to read or answer.

 

[AlexanderA]

To begin with, antiques are those made through the end of 1898, therefore, before 1899.

Beyond that, it gets complicated. For purposes of Title I (ordinary firearms), the pre-1899 date holds true regardless of the ignition system (cartridge guns are included as antiques) and is also extended to post-1898 replicas of non-cartridge guns.

The rule for Title II (NFA items) is different. A pre-1899 gun is an antique (for NFA purposes) only if it's a non-cartridge gun, or if it's a cartridge gun for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So, to answer your question, it would depend on the specific cartridge for which the gun is chambered. For example, a pre-1899 machine gun chambered for .30-40 Krag is covered by the NFA, because that cartridge is still available.

It doesn't matter when such a gun was converted so as to come under the NFA.

 

[Elkins45]

The rule for Title II (NFA items) is different. A pre-1899 gun is an antique (for NFA purposes) only if it's a non-cartridge gun, or if it's a cartridge gun for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Which begs the question: are there many available working machine guns chambered for cartridges that are not readily available? I would be willing to do a lot of brass forming to be able to buy an affordable machine gun.

 

[AlexanderA]

Which begs the question: are there many available working machine guns chambered for cartridges that are not readily available? I would be willing to do a lot of brass forming to be able to buy an affordable machine gun.

Such a machine gun, if it exists, would be so rare that the price would be comparable to registered NFA machine guns. The only advantage is that you wouldn't have the long bureaucratic wait.

Where these rules really come into play is for cartridge rifles that were shortened a long time ago, especially those that came that way from the factory. In such cases, the ATF has the ability to administratively remove them from the purview of the NFA. In fact they publish a list of such guns that have been so removed.

 

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies.

So if if it was a machinegun chambered in something obscure and not available, it wouldn't need to be on the NFA registry? Even if the cartridge was readily formed from something common, such as 45-70? Hmm... I bet there aren't a lot of them floating around.

 

[Bazoo]

Such a machine gun, if it exists, would be so rare that the price would be comparable to registered NFA machine guns. The only advantage is that you wouldn't have the long bureaucratic wait.

Where these rules really come into play is for cartridge rifles that were shortened a long time ago, especially those that came that way from the factory. In such cases, the ATF has the ability to administratively remove them from the purview of the NFA. In fact they publish a list of such guns that have been so removed.

Where do I find this list? That's interesting, thank you for sharing.

 

[rust collector]

Here is a link to the ATF FAQ pdf:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

 

[12Bravo20]

Where these rules really come into play is for cartridge rifles that were shortened a long time ago, especially those that came that way from the factory. In such cases, the ATF has the ability to administratively remove them from the purview of the NFA. In fact they publish a list of such guns that have been so removed.

Quite a few of the Winchester Trapper models with less than 16" barrels are prime examples of this. Some short barreled Winchester Trapper models have been removed from the NFA due to their collection value.

 

[Bazoo]

Here is a link to the ATF FAQ pdf:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

Thanks, I checked that out. I don't see anything about short barrel rifles/shotguns that are exempted from the NFA.

 

[AlexanderA]

I should point out that the procedure for the ATF removing old guns from the purview of the NFA doesn't apply to machine guns or, generally, destructive devices. It's used for short barrel rifles / shotguns, and for the category known as "any other weapons."

A list of such guns removed from the NFA can be found in Sections III and IIIA of the ATF "Curios and Relics List." This is available online at https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

 

[dogtown tom]

Here is a link to the ATF FAQ pdf:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

The NFA Handbook was useful up until 2009. It has not been updated since and I would never use it as reference. A lot of water has run over the dam since 2009.
While the photos and examples are useful, its not an accurate "handbook" by any means.

 

[Johnm1]

I don't see anything about short barrel rifles/shotguns that are exempted from the NFA.

This might help

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms - National Firearms Act Definitions - Antique Firearm | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Download this Section Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification National Firearms Act Definitions Antique Firearm 26 U.S.C.

www.atf.gov

 

[SC45-70]

Thanks for the replies.

So if if it was a machinegun chambered in something obscure and not available, it wouldn't need to be on the NFA registry? Even if the cartridge was readily formed from something common, such as 45-70? Hmm... I bet there aren't a lot of them floating around.

The machine gun part is the receiver, no matter the cartridge the barrel chambers.

 

[dogtown tom]

The machine gun part is the receiver, no matter the cartridge the barrel chambers.

There are thousands of auto sears, lightning links, Glock switches, etc that are "machine guns" all by themselves. They are not receivers.

 

[SC45-70]

There are thousands of auto sears, lightning links, Glock switches, etc that are "machine guns" all by themselves. They are not receivers.

Yes and they are all covered by the NFA just like the right side plate for an M2, they are considered machine guns by the BATFE even though they don't have a barrel and can not fire a perjectial! The machine gun part is what ever the BATFE deems it is!

 

[mm93]

The Rolling Block rifles and pistols made by Remington were not reworked from pistols or rifles, they were in many cases pistol actions that then got assembled as rifles, or different model pistols.
In the case of rifles like the #2 and #7 those actions didn't begin life as pistol actions reworked to rifles. They share many internal parts, but the tangs are completely different, so they are the same size receivers, but not the same receivers or they'd have to have their tangs reworked. Other than the tangs the receivers are pretty much the same, with just mainsprings and mainspring mounting being different also.

 

[mm93]

To begin with, antiques are those made through the end of 1898, therefore, before 1899.

Beyond that, it gets complicated. For purposes of Title I (ordinary firearms), the pre-1899 date holds true regardless of the ignition system (cartridge guns are included as antiques) and is also extended to post-1898 replicas of non-cartridge guns.

The rule for Title II (NFA items) is different. A pre-1899 gun is an antique (for NFA purposes) only if it's a non-cartridge gun, or if it's a cartridge gun for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So, to answer your question, it would depend on the specific cartridge for which the gun is chambered. For example, a pre-1899 machine gun chambered for .30-40 Krag is covered by the NFA, because that cartridge is still available.

It doesn't matter when such a gun was converted so as to come under the NFA.

That's not quite true as it pertains to the rules. It's a two part statement that describes "antique" firearms, as pre 1899, but modern firearms being made and chambered for ammunition no longer manufactured or not readily available. Antiques are all guns made prior to Jan 1st, 1899. A gun like a Shiloh Sharps made today in say .45-70, .38-55, or .22LR for example, are not antique. But chamber a new Shiloh Sharps in an obsolete cartridge and it's sold just like an antique.
When I had my FFL I had a long discussion with an ATF agent about this, and he said this was a common mistake FFL holders made when they got an antique rifle in a commonly available cartridge to sell, or when an antique was rebarreled, and dealers thought it was no longer an antique if rebarreled to a modern cartridge.
Antique is the birth date of the serial numbered receiver, if before 1899, according to ATF.

 

[mm93]

Thanks, I checked that out. I don't see anything about short barrel rifles/shotguns that are exempted from the NFA.

ATF has a list of those guns made with shorter than legal (by modern standards) barrels. The list includes a lot of old 1800's, and early 1900's rifles, but ATF actually will look at any of those similar guns that were made at the same time and add them to their list, or reject them if they determine they've been modified. In the case of any that are modified they'll remove the barrel and give the owner back the rest of the parts.
Bill Brophy had a list of Marlin lever action rifles in the Models 1889, 1894, and 1893 that he sent to ATF and got all of those grandfathered in. But more have been added since once examined.

 

[Bazoo]

Thanks all for contributing. I didn't have any idea on a lot of this. Very informative discussion.